After 20 years of shooting and hunting with traditional bows, I consider myself to still be new at this compared to many I know. But one thing I have decided on is that there really is no one size fits all way of shooting for people. An example for me is the release. I know EVERYONE says that when you release your string hand should come back across your face. You might even touch your shoulder. Well...the thing is...mine doesnt. My release hand DOES move backwards, but not very much. I see video of guys shooting with their release hand coming back and touching their shoulder and often you can tell they are forcing this because that is what they have been told it should do.
Take a guy like Rick Welch, Barry Wensel, Gene Wensel, or Ron LaClair. Watch their release. It works for them well. If I try to make my hand go backwards at the release, my string hand normally comes off the side of my face. I don't shoot well that way. Yet if I don't think about it at all...my string hand ends up slightly past my anchor point...and remains on my face.
Just posting this for guys who may be struggling with that. I did for a couple of years. The last few years I just stopped worrying about it..and have enjoyed watching my arrows hit the mark.
I agree the follow through should be a natural reaction to the release not something forced. If I try to touch my shoulder it feels like I am forcing it and I don't see how a follow through of touching your shoulder differs any from a follow through of the hand sliding to the ear.
After having chased "proper form" for the past five years since picking up my longbows again, Back Tension and the resulting recoil where the shoulder/arm/hand follow the path "around back" has been what I thought was the direction I should be following. There is no doubt that this helped my shooting, but in the process a severe case of TP resulted.
After an 18 month struggle I decided to "go back to the roots" and simplify things so that good, trouble free, and fun shooting returned.
I went back to Schulz, Ferguson, Wesley, and Asbell. What does this have to do with Jon's post? Let's just say that Asbell says it best. The shot is the result of the simple physics of an equal and opposite reaction. That the bow arm has as much to do with it as the string side.
The swing draw locks the bow shoulder in its' proper position as the draw unfolds. Pushing your bow hand towards the target once you've achieved anchor is the best focus for a clean release without focusing on, or thinking about the release. Just like pulling through the shot, pushing your bow hand steadily at the target results in a surprise release. The resulting recoil is minimal......the shot is accurate, pluck free, and the mental side of it is clutter free.
Jon's post is dead nuts on the money, there are two sides to the shot.....focus as much on the bow shoulder, bow arm, and bow hand/bow grip. You'll find that proper recoil is natural....not something that should be chased.
If you have an exaggerated hand motion on release, of your broadhead-tipped arrow at 15 yards, you will have no opportunity for a second shot on that or any other deer within several hundred yards. My hand doesn't move back on release any farther than the first knuckle of my thumb touching my outer ear.
Jon, I do it the same way you do. Whatever works for you.
The recoil of the string hand/arm is a RESULT of setting up with a relaxed string arm. Bone on bone alignment AND holding the bow weight with the back and NOT the arm.
When those conditions are met, THEN!!! The follow through is a REACTION and NOT something you do. It just HAPPENS.
Arne
My best form is achieved when I visualize an irate grizzly staring at me. I want virtually no movement of ANYTHING on release. This works for me, maybe something else works for you. The glory of traditional archery is that it allows for a near infinite variation of technique.
My hand flies back on release; if I achieve my goal of relaxing my hand completely, it will flip back and the tip of my thumb, pointing down, will be lightly touching my shoulder. If I have tension in my hand/fingers, it tends to come off sideways, and I tend to shoot to the left. That's my experience. The most important thing, I think, is repeatability, doing the same thing every time. Rick Welch's hand flies out to the side, and he apparently even creeps a little if you watch him in slo-mo, but he must be creeping exactly the same amount, because he shoots lights out. I've seen some of the worst form produce some spectacular, consistent accuracy if that form was always the same.
From observing Rick Welch in videos and in person, I think at times he overdraws and then settles into position. This is not the same disaster that occurs when someone begins to lose back tension and creeps or collapses during the shot. With his dead release, he just holds tension wherever he wants to, and releases whenever the spirit moves him. This is different from a person shooting with a dynamic release who must continue to increase back tension throughout the shot. Not saying that one is better than the other, just that there are differences in execution.
QuoteOriginally posted by moebow:
The recoil of the string hand/arm is a RESULT of setting up with a relaxed string arm. Bone on bone alignment AND holding the bow weight with the back and NOT the arm.
When those conditions are met, THEN!!! The follow through is a REACTION and NOT something you do. It just HAPPENS.
Arne
Nice post Arne.....
mangonboat's quote .....
"you will have no opportunity for a second shot on that or any other deer within several hundred yards" Oh Contrar !!!
*I* killed my biggest Buck on my 2nd shot as the 1st one was deflected....not to mention 2nd shots on other deer I've killed, bucks and does....AND hogs.
Since I never stop pulling, my string hand just follows the natural path. Luckily, I don't need many second shots, but my follow through has nothing to do with spooking game for another shot.
View From Rear (http://tradgang.com/videos/terry11.wmv)
Broadside profile with wife\\'s commentary (http://tradgang.com/videos/tg/m27.wmv)
Over the Pond...... (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry-2.wmv)
Heck, the most violent thing that happens on the shot is the bow limbs coming forward....and the most audible...yet lots of us have had second chances at animals. I think any animal is more likely to see the flash of the bow limbs snapping forward before they see my follow through....yet many see nothing.
Terry,
I have tried and tried and TRIED to duplicate that beautiful release and follow through of yours. I find that the result is more often than not a terrible string pluck. Do you think that is due to an over exaggeration of the movements?? When I come to anchor, achieve alignment and then gradually expand to release I get off the string very well and my grouping and arrow flight reflects it. When I try to speed the process up and make it one fluid movement like you do my release goes all to pieces. Thoughts?? Do I just need more practice at it?
Good thread, Jon.
As always thanks in advance.
Jake
Jake....that's just the way I shoot....my shot evolved into that, and I don't think I shoot that fast....never knew I did till I filmed my shot, but it doesn't seem like I'm shooting that quick.
You need to find out what works for you. I don't 'force' the follow through....it just happens as a continuation of the pull.
Like I said, find out what works for you and try to shoot like Jake...not like Terry...if you end up like Terry so be it.
Do you have any footage on here of you shooting?
:campfire:
Terry,
I don't have any footage posted. I have had my wife film me a good bit, but have never gotten around to getting it posted. I will get that done soon.
Your advice to "shoot like Jake" really makes me feel good. My shooting has come a heck of a long way in the last year. I have taken a good bit from you, some from Arne, some from Guru, a little from Joe Coots, and a little from others like Barry and Gene and Byron. My shooting style is a complete mishmash of all you guys. Thanks a bunch for the response and for all the help on the forum. I will make a point to get some videos up. I would really like to get your feedback.
THANK YOU!!!
Jake
Sorry Jake....seems like another fake from the 'enemy camp; came and fell on his own sword over the weekend.
Yep,,,,its a shame you ask a question and get an argument....by those that don't shoot the way you do, or understand the aiming method.
We also don't talk target archery here, so not sure why all that was brought in. But I don't know PLENTY of instinctive shooters have won IBO worlds...one was Ron LaClair with a 110# longbow.
The man got his question answered....I see no need to argue over his question, or degrade his method if that method ends up working for him.
It always seems the case...like the light bow guys bashing the heavy bow shooters, but not the revers. There's something a miss in that mentality wise. If you want to argue, please to to some over forum.
I've cleaned out the stalls left trashed over the weekend, and got rid of a couple of donkeys that participated.
Let it be for God's sake....now go hunting. :campfire:
Yes sir. I apologize for any participation I may have had.
I'm going hunting.
Jake
Jake...I can assure you...it wasn't anything you did or said. No worries.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
But I don't know PLENTY of instinctive shooters have won IBO worlds...one was Ron LaClair with a 110# longbow.
Ron LaClair has never won an IBO world. As far as I know, he's never even competed in one. He won a Howard Hill longbow shoot years ago that was billed as some kind of world championship though. It was an unsanctioned event.
QuoteOriginally posted by moebow:
The recoil of the string hand/arm is a RESULT of setting up with a relaxed string arm. Bone on bone alignment AND holding the bow weight with the back and NOT the arm.
When those conditions are met, THEN!!! The follow through is a REACTION and NOT something you do. It just HAPPENS.
Arne
This is absolutely correct. The follow through is a REACTION to a properly executed shot, not an action in and of itself.
Jake: Lots of guys who shoot quickly and well, like Terry, don't realize they are shooting quickly and it doesn't even seem quick to them. They generally are surprised when you tell them they are. I think it's because they develop the fundamentals and then eventually just establish their own natural shot rythyms, which just happen to seem fast to others who haven't yet quite mastered things to the same extent. I practice holding on the bale, and all the little parts of the shot, but when I move back and start shooting at things for real, I let my body take over and the shot goes when it goes; I never try to hold it longer on purpose. When I do, I don't shoot as well. When I hit anchor and expand, all my aiming is already done, and it's just a matter of letting my internal computer trigger the shot, so to speak. That's how it works for me, at least.
To the contrary, I find that if I force myself to hold for what seems like an artificially long time, about 2 seconds, my shooting improves. If I've been rushing my last few shots and decide to start forcing myself to hold for 2 seconds, the first couple of shots are probably not going to be very good, because too much of my concentration is going into holding and is not being spread around among the other parts of my shot execution and aiming like it should be. But after I get over that hump and start holding for 2 seconds without undue stress, my shooting is the best that I'm capable of.
Rick Welch stresses the 2 second hold as an integral part of his training. He will stand behind you and say "hold, hold, hold....shoot," until you get the sequence right. He is willing to compromise on many things: grip, anchor, glove or tab, etc., but I don't believe he would be willing to compromise on the 2 second hold, integrated with his dead release. He might be willing to grant that some archers could reach their potentials without a 2 second hold, but I'm pretty sure he would recommend that those people study under someone else, as Rick's method probably wouldn't help them.
I'm by no means an expert, and am content if I place well in my old farts' category in the tournaments I enter, but after experimenting with many different methods, that's what works for me.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
But I don't know PLENTY of instinctive shooters have won IBO worlds...one was Ron LaClair with a 110# longbow.
Ron LaClair has never won an IBO world. As far as I know, he's never even competed in one. He won a Howard Hill longbow shoot years ago that was billed as some kind of world championship though. It was an unsanctioned event. [/b]
My bad Jason...you are correct...it was the Howard Hill shoot. Brain Fart...thanks for the correction. :wavey:
Yeah Dave...ya just gotta find what works for you. Some need to hold, some don't. I don't most of the time unless the game dictates. If I 'lose the window' for a time, I start my let down slowly, and either return to brace or start to re-draw if the window opens again.
Form and follow through (http://youtu.be/ZIFeDqQSNe8?t=1m36s)
McDave: I do force myself to hold when doing form work. Sometimes, I will hold for a relatively long time when actually shooting at things, but not on purpose, because I feel that I should hold for the sake of holding. What I am saying is that I let the shot sequence take care of itself once the draw and correct anchor and back tension are established. I am subtly increasing the back tension all the time, but I never choose to let it go; it just happens automatically as a result of the previous steps, just like shooting a back tension release on a compound. I aim till it goes, however long that happens to take. I generally find that it is about 1, 2, gone, when I am in rhythym and shooting especially well. I tried the Rick Welch thing: "Hold, hold, hold," etc. Got all his vids. All I do is creep and pluck.
Paul: It may be that what you experienced is the same thing I experienced when I tried to mix the pull-through release with other elements of Rick's method: creeping and plucking.
Rick practically had to hit me on the head with my own bow before he finally got me to understand that increasing back tension during the hold and a pull through release are not part of his method. I would try to cheat by holding for 1.9 seconds at a constant back tension and then trying to pull through for the last .1 second, which is a prescription for creeping and plucking. When I finally understood that his method is to simply hold at a constant back tension until you release, life became much simpler for me, and it was quite a relief.
This is possibly why the arbitrary 2 second hold is more significant in his method than when using the pull through release: you aren't really doing anything during the 2 second hold other than letting your bow stabilize and relaxing any muscles that shouldn't be tense as you hold the bow. Because of that, the 2 seconds can seem like 2 minutes, and it really requires quite a bit of discipline to avoid rushing the shot. I would say that this part of his method is more difficult than the pull through method, whereas other parts are simpler, such as not having to coordinate increasing back tension with aiming with release of the bow.
Certainly not trying to convince anyone that Rick's method is any better than any other method of shooting, but I think it is a fairly common error for people to think they are using his method when they really aren't, as was the case with me.
Well, I did try to incorporate the dead release, too, rather than the dynamic one, when I started working on the stuff in his vids. Don't get me wrong, his info did change my approach to shooting and got me back into a more orthodox approach with a recurve; I had been basically trying to break free from the chains, so to speak, and using the Asbell method of canting, etc. Since I was a trained wheelie target shooter, that's the world I wanted to get far away from, for sanity reasons. Anyway, any sense of freedom I had pretty quickly turned sour when I couldn't shoot well consistently. Rick's vids made me realize that good form is good form, whatever bow one chooses to shoot. They got me to establish a solid anchor with multiple references, although still using split finger, and holding longer, and shooting with the bow upright, not canted. I could never get the dead release down, though. Sometimes I'd relax and make great shots, but just as often I'd creep and shoot left, or collapse and shoot right. The dynamic release style just works better for me, as that is the way I was trained to shoot with training wheels on the bow. Hand goes straight back, bow goes straight forward, arrows go center. I think everyone has to find his own way, eventually, but Rick's vids helped put me on the path, so to speak.
We are blessed to have many viable shot execution methods.
There are merely a few certain aspects which we all must incorporate and beyond that, the methods we can repeat, permit a relaxed execution and enjoy the results of expectation reside comfortably with the individual.
***Fine patrolling and proper response to maintain the integrity and protection of its members which find comfort within this coveted refuge...Thank you Terry!!!****
Friend,
You sure have a way with the Kings English! I agree!!
Jake