I know this has been covered a lot in the past. The debate of instinctive shooting versus shooting with some type of point of aim. I'm what I consider to be a "throw the ball" type of shooter. No point of aim and no consideration for distance. Either it's in range or too far. All my hunting shots have been 25 yards or less but when I release the arrow I don't think in terms or yardage. When you fire a baseball from deep in left field you don't think "it's 200 feet and I need to throw it this hard and at this trajectory" to get it there. After years of shooting your brain does the calculation and you just do it. Really enjoy shooting at night, target illuminated and no way to see the arrow, just look at what you want to hit and let it go. Just picked up this 59 Kodiak from Big Jim, came in the mail yesterday. Love the 50's style recurves, had a couple of the original 59 Kodiak's and they're a joy to shoot. Other than the bad leather wrapped grip Bear did good on this one. 60" 45@28, drawn to 30". Sweet! Five arrows in a row at 20 yards in the dark.
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e173/Yellowdog3822/imagejpg2_zps04f3eb10.jpg)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e173/Yellowdog3822/imagejpg1_zps57655b16.jpg)
I'm with you on this style of shooting. I made reference to it once on another talk forum and was shortly afterwards lambasted because I was referencing an "un-credible" style of shooting. Glad to hear I'm not crazy lol, nice group by the way, congrats on the new bow.
You put the true nature of instinctive shooting quite eloquently. Nice shooting. The naysayers just don't get that its an aiming method, just a subconscious one. Basketball players, golfers, etc don't gap shoot! Sorry had to :D LOL
Michael, I'm with you on this one.
I don't use a range finder when I'm casting my fishing pole. lol
Thanks! :thumbsup:
People ask all of the time, How do you aim that thing....
I tell them how do you throw a ball. Our, I say you just look at it and shoot....
A good way to practice is the shootin at the candle in the dark....
Right on Yellowdog. As an old quarterback and a second baseman of years gone by. I have used this analogy many times in explaining the art of instinctive shooting and instinctive throwing. You are spot on! The biggest buck of my bow hunting life so far was taken at fifteen yards at a dead run. He was chasing a fawn doe late in the post rut and as he came by my tree in hot pursuit, I let the hair covered computer do the numbers as I swung with him hitting him in the numbers as I used to hit my wideouts. No thinking just pure instints. :thumbsup: Wouldn't have had time to line everything up if using sights and trying to figure yardage, oh the simplicity of it all. Buck is in my avatar. Good hunting Bro, Gary.
Thats pretty much how I shoot.
The brain is amazing when it come to processing all that information and zeroing in on something.
As with anything else, some are blessed with more natural ability than others.
Agreed. What really made it clear to me was when I used a laser dot to shoot at after dark. Shot BETTER than when I have the distractions of other things in my sight picture (arrow shaft, tip, gap, etc.).
I use a "darts" analogy. After many years on leagues I can hit the "tripples" just about every time. Shooting a bow is exactly the same. Muscle memory through practice.........
I always find this debate interesting. Though I agree there is merit to some of what you say, I have to ask , what about the effort made by the catcher. Do you get that kind of help from your target? Just asking
I won't get into the sight picture and start another argument on aiming. However determining range is also a visual input. How are you guys determining range in pitch blackness with no input froom your surroundings? Or can this black shooting only be done at a predetermined range?
I shoot this way to some degree, but I do shoot better and more consistently when I take the time and gap shoot.
Something that must be remembered is this...
Not everyone can pitch. Very few people can reliably throw a rock and kill a bird with it predictably, and at will. I played baseball and softball off and on all my life, and I remember very few who consistently threw the ball with the kind of accuracy that we need with archery.
But that's what makes sports (and watching sports) fun. Can the hockey player shoot the puck into the hole that the goalie hasn't got covered? Can that pitcher strike the guy out? Can the batter hit off this pitcher? Can this b-ball player make the clutch 3-pointer?
And it's shooting by these more "intuitive" methods that makes shooting arrows so enjoyable to me.
I made a similar post here on the shooters forum and was basically told I can't be accurate shooting in a simple way. What archers fail to realize we are all manufactured differently and there are many ways to shoot accurately. Some use a reference, some do not, some combine methods. It's whatever works for the particular shooter that is best.
For myself, solid form, along with a complete focus on the target has my shooting my best. To be fair I don't care to compete or kill paper, my shooting session are strictly about keeping as realistic as I can to hunting conditions.
Continue shooting in the method that allows you the most pleasure is the best advice I can offer. Don't worry about how anyone else shoots or aims.
Michael - Great bow!
Yup, you just described My Style of Shooting as well! No Gap Method or anything like that. I Judge and let fly, and usually can hit what I am shooting at within 20 yards. Takes me an Arrow or 2 past 20 yards to zero in, but its all in the Brain and estimation from MANY Hours of Practice and a Few Lost Arrows. Glad I am not Alone!!
With my eyes I can't see the bow or the tip of the arrow I have to shoot that way. It works.
Everyone uses references, everyone uses gap shooting and point of aim. It is in every style of shooting unless you completely close your eyes and shoot in complete blindness. And then if you hit the target it's because you remembered where the target was and are using point of aim and gap practice to point your bow in that direction. Throwing a ball or any object including your bow is just like having all of the mechanical devices of modern day on your bow. The difference is we take those devices off our bow and chose to use our brain to make the shot, for example. We remove the kisser button on a compound bow and come to full anchor at our eye tooth every time instead and use our eye tooth or another anchor point to replace the kisser button. Just remember one thing, archers did this first the kisser button came out way after archers started shooting bows. We have just come full cycle and came back to tradition. The muscle memory replaces let off on a bow, we have to hold that position and maintain our shooting position to be accurate. All of this comes from a practice shot and it just so happens that you are smarter than you give yourselves credit for. No one just shoots like the old saying is said, poke and hope unless you never pull your bow out of the closet every year and take that thing in the woods without ever shooting until the game is in front of you, picks the bow up not knowing the spine of your arrow the weight of your bow the draw length that you pull, the distance of your game and what end of the arrow is used to kill the animal. That is everything but, PRACVTICED MEMORY.
That's how I shoot exactly! I shoot no farther then 20 yards however, and can tell just by looking if its within my range.
My style also Yellow Dod, amazing what the brain can do when you teach it enough. Good to 20yds. getting better at 25 not ready to shoot that far at a deer yet.
Michael:That's exactly it. :archer2:
This is what "instinctive" shooting, is all about!!!
Many laugh at me, but IMHO, "bare-shafting" is for the birds!!! If a bird had no feathers, it couldn't fly!!!! Tuning??? Alittle playing with your nock point, or brace height, to get good arrow flight or quiet things down, is just common sense... Many folks go completely BONKERS trying to "tune" their bows!!!
If you can TRUELY shoot instinctively... Nothing else will matter. :thumbsup:
Woodchucker: you hit the nail on the head with that one. O' I think I crossed that line a few times.
Unfortunately, I'm not a very good golfer. I tried shooting a few hoops on my grandson's low net in his drive way and didn't do very well. I haven't tried to fire a ball from deep left field since I was a kid but I'm not sure we would ever find the ball if I tried it today.
I don't really measure my gaps or think about them in terms of yards and inches but I would describe myself as a gap or point of aim shooter since I do use the arrow to aim.
I keep my shots at game under 25 yards and, more often under 20. Here's the thing. My "gap" doesn't change much over that distance so I don't need to think in terms of yards either. On a deer sized target, it's either close enough or it isn't. ok, maybe I think in terms of it's on the far side of close enough where I'm point on or on the close side where I have a few inches of gap but it doesn't make that much difference.
I can still shoot a group on my target bag in the dark and I don't even illuminate the target.
Let me make a suggestion. Objectively measure your accuracy and precision over a significant number of arrows and see what the numbers really say.
I don't have anything against "instinctive aiming". It's just that I've never personally seen anybody who claims to be an instinctive shooter who really shoots very well where it's actually measured. We all get a lucky shot here and there...maybe even several lucky shots in a row. Measure 20 or 50 or 100 shots in a row and count them all.
Howard Hill had his "split vision" thing. John Shultz mentions "whatever aiming reference you use" or something like that. Byron Ferguson uses the arrow, right?
We know that all the top 3-d and spot shooters use some conscious aiming method...and most (or many) are successful hunters.
How many of you have sawed the scope or sights off of your rifles? Why not just shoot it "instinctively"?
Maybe I'm wrong but I think a target is a target. If you can shoot well, you should be able to hit any target you select. Yet so many "instinctive" shooters won't shoot paper or compete. Doing it just once would go a long way in proving a point.
I admit to being a skeptic at heart but it would really be impressive to see one of you go out and beat the pants off of Dewayne Martin...indoors or on a 3-d course.
A stick bow is a simple device. However, simple devices are often more complicated to actually use well than complex devices are.
I can't beat Dewayne either so I'll just finish by saying that the jury is still out and I would be more than interested in seeing some evidence...but a picture of one group or shot is not what I would call evidence.
Bow tuning...as a hunter, whether or not I can group broadhead tipped arrows where I point them says it all.
I start with bare shafts only because it minimizes the amount of expensive broadheads I have to shoot at expensive broadhead targets. If bare shafts land where I intend them to, the broadheads usually do also. If the arrow matches the bow and your shooting is clean, you really don't need fletching when shooting target points. Fletching is there to correct mistakes and mistakes (in tune or shooting) is what we're trying to see by shooting bare shafts.
When shooting fletched arrows tipped with target points, you can shoot almost any arrow off of almost any bow. In order to prove a point in one of these discussion on another forum, I shot some pretty tidy groups using .400 spine arrows off of a 15 (fifteen) pound bow. What do you think would have happened if I mounted some broadheads on those arrows?
Here's the thing, tuning alone will not get you good groups where there are no good groups to be had. If shooting is sloppy, it can appear to make little difference, especially, over a small number of arrows.
Yep, it starts with form. Form is enhanced with well-tuned equipment, and all this comes together when the mind is disciplined by practice, confidence, and commitment to the shot.
I took a drive yesterday and stopped at the local archery shop/indoor range and the state WMA.
I saw a lot of compound shooters and a surprising number of crossbow shooters (hunters).
I've also shot at the indoor range when the weather is real nasty and gathered an audience and heard the comments when I manage to put a few in the 5 spot.
Maybe you don't care...and I'm not sure I do except that we have contingent that would like to see accuracy testing required for "traditional" hunters. The image that so many hunters have of stick bows is that you can't hit anything with them...and that's exactly what they see from the stick bow shooters that they come across.
Go to your club or local shop and tell me that the great majority of stick bow shooters could hit the broad side of the barn from inside the barn. They can't.
I remember when I first started shooting a recurve. I shot it like I had my compound (I shot that without sights). I remember well dressed recurve and longbow shooters telling me that I was doing it wrong. They said I should shoot like this...and they hunched over, snap shot and NEVER hit anything! I was hitting ok.
Some of them shot fairly heavy bows but I remember being amazed at how SLOW their arrows flew. All these years later I realize that, even though some of them were big guys, they probably weren't drawing 22 inches before they released the arrow.
I also remember the old guy (he seemed old to me at the time) shooting a girly colored bow vertical (no cant) and stacking them in the bull at 40 yards.
I had to ask him how he was doing it. He was shooting 40 pounds and using the arrow to aim.
He wasn't a hunter but I would not have wanted to be a deer on the day he decided to take up hunting.
Those other guys would have been no danger.
The description of "shooting instinctive" can be misinterpreted. i believe that with a lot of time invested and practice you "Learn to shoot instinctively" .
It's letting your subconscious mind make the adjustment without thinking about it, and learning to trust your instincts.... you don't think about it, you just do it.
I honestly don't think this type of archery comes natural for everyone either. Mostly because they think about it too much and do not spend enough time perfecting a repeatable form.
The shooting at night thing with a target that is lit up, you are still subconsciously using a gap, and lining up your arrow in the sight window whether you realize it or not.
We have a yearly night shoot at the Bow hunters of Washington rendezvous that i've shot for 4 consecutive years now & it's proven to me that without any light at all to see your bow sight window or arrow, you have nothing to line up on at all, and have no idea how far you are shooting. They use glow sticks on the targets and the targets run from 15 yards to 45 yards.
I've shot side by side with some damn good archers that only hit 5 or six targets out of 15.
The funny thing about it is... if it's a moon lit night. you do much better in the open, than you do in the thick timber where you can't see the bow in your hands at all..... you guys say what you want about being totally instinctive. If its pitch black & all you can see is a glow stick, a small christmas light, or a candle. You are still using the sight window to line up your bow correctly, and if you truly don't know the distance..... Well it's a shot in the dark ....literally.
What most people today don't seem to realize... TRUE Instictive shooting, Is a matter of Hand/Eye cordination, controled by the brain's ability to tell the body what to do, and the body's ability to do it.
You can "gap" "point refferance" Whatever you want... It IS NOT, truely instinctive shooting. Instinctive shooting, Is simply looking at the target, draw, shoot, and hit it!!! Alot can be determined by what distances we practice at, however true instictive shooting is pure body function. Like throwing a ball!!!
Btw, To a really good, truely instinctive shooter, "Tuning" doesn't mean spit. A good instictive shooter, can pick up any bow, with any arrows, and consistantly hit a target within his "range" after nothing more than a few "practice shots! His brain accounts for where the first couple shots impact & his body compansates accordingly. This comes from YEARS of PRACTICE!!!!! ALSO, A really good INSTINCTIVE shooter, can set his bow aside for weeks, or even MONTHS at a time... The pick it up again and be right back "in there" in a few days time!!!
When I was growing up, I shot a enormous number of differant bows. Whatever I could get my hands on!!! Out of them, I shot probly thousands of arrows, basicly whatever I could find in the big box at the Dept. or Hardware store. Nothing matched,LMAO!!! But, I most always hit what I was shooting at...
After getting away from Bowhunting for several years, I met a man who became my VERY Good Friend,and is a member here on TradGang. He had a "Traditional" Archery shop in his basement. He sold me a 1967 Bear Kodiak Magnum, Shooting glove, and a 1/2 doz. cedar arrows. He put a new endlessloop string on the bow, adjusted the brace height with his fist&thumb,(fistmele,it was called,back in the day!) Set the nocking point,by eye...(no "bow square") Tied on a pair of rubber whiskers, and cut me loose!!!!!
Within a week, I was shooting 5"-6" groups at 20 yards. After a couple more weeks, I was back to buy more arrows... I also learned that shooting "tight groups" gets to be EXPENSIVE!!!!! "Shoot 1 arrow at the target. That's the 1 that counts" Is probly the best advice he's given me!!!
PRACTICE, is the ONLY thing, that will make you a truely INSTICTIVE shooter.....
PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!!!
I'm only 55 and I've only been shooting stick bows since the mid 80's. We didn't have he internet back then so I kind of wonder where this "instinctive" thing came from.
I know that one of the Wilhelm brothers shot from the hip and Aspirin Buster shoots behind the back (at very short distances) but who is shooting really well without some kind of aiming "system"?
The shooting in the dark thing...I'm mostly a gap shooter and I can usually get a few arrows inside of a pie plate or better at close range in the dark too. It's just that "good" shooting at those distances would be all those arrows almost in the same hole so what does it prove?
Woodchucker said..."Within a week, I was shooting 5"-6" groups at 20 yards. After a couple more weeks, I was back to buy more arrows... I also learned that shooting "tight groups" gets to be EXPENSIVE!!!!! "Shoot 1 arrow at the target. That's the 1 that counts" Is probly the best advice he's given me!!!"
So you could knock off a 280 or so on an NFA 300 round, correct?
Honestly, I don't know??? Never tried...
I do know, I have to buy a new 3D target every year, Because I shoot the snot out of it & it's DESTROYED!!! Also, My backstop has VERY few holes in it from "flyers"...
I found out something interesting about my own "instinctive" shooting after having put the bow down for 15yrs and recently taking it back up. When I first started shooting 25+yrs ago, I gap shot with a recurve and used sights on a compound. I eventually settled in with the recurve and got my accuracy to the point of hitting rolling oranges 4 out of 5 times at 15yds. We used to nail bottle caps at 10-15yrds and hit a soccer ball from as far as we could kick it in the field. I picked up the bow again just this summer and couldn't hit a cow in the rump with a banjo. I was lost on targets, completely missing at 25yds. This is where it gets interesting...
Just prior to being totally frustrated and giving up for good, I decided to have fun again. I set up a hanging tennis ball and swung it in front of the target. Be darned if I didn't pin it, first shot. Since then, I have been shooting at everything BUT a bullseye and my groupings are getting tighter every week. I am around 3" inside of 15yds and 6-8" at 20-25yds. I still get errant arrows because my form isn't consistent. I don't think I would do well on paper.
My point is that I almost completely lost my gap shooting technique but somehow tapped into that instinct of hitting a moving target... sup wid dat? I would have thought it would have been the opposite.
Yup. :archer2:
I think we've all experience shooting better on targets that are one-up or novel.
I find that shooting paper well is extremely difficult. Just looking at a blank target face drops my shooting a notch. I've tested and measured that too. LOL but I've also mentioned some of my misses on deer.
I was shooting good so I thought I'd knock off a 300 round to see how good. I hung the target and couldn't hit anything. I went back to shooting the tin can and did fine. Back to paper and did lousy.
I put the two side by side and I would shoot a lousy group of arrows at the paper and a nice group in the tin can.
The repetition is hard. Maintaining the same level of concentration and form on every shot is hard. It's hard to do all that when every single mistake is recorded in all it's ugliness.
But that's why I do it. I won't claim to be there yet but I intend to be able to hit whatever I shoot at, whenever I decide to shoot at it. Why should it matter if it's paper, a tennis ball or a deer?
Either way, it's a target. Shoot it if you can.
The mental game is the hardest part to get a handle on.
Rick said "I still get errant arrows because my form isn't consistent. I don't think I would do well on paper."
The secret to shooting good is to not make any bad shots. If you get rid of those errant shots, you'll score well on paper or anything else you shoot at.
It's exactly those errant shots that make your 6 inch 20 yard group (that would score a 270) more like a 12 inch group (that won't score much better than a 200)when you count all the shots.
It was one of my "errant shots" that missed that deer last year.
As time goes on (I guess I'm a slow learner) my errant shots are getting less errant and less frequent.
Making that happen has NOT always been fun. It's been a lot of work. It's been frustrating and even painful at times. But, I've improved and I'm having more fun now. The more I hit the spot I aim at, the more fun I have.
I know that shooting at deer will be more fun if I hit them.
My goal is to be able to move between instinctive(no tangible aiming method) and a form of gap/arrow/peripheral style. I enjoy the experience of nailing a target the instinctive way but as mgf said, the mental game is the hardest part. I want to be able to fall back on some sort of mechanical aiming method that doesn't rely as heavily on my mental state... lol. I am not yet at the level of hitting whatever I look at, everytime... I am hoping that will come. That said, it also makes sense to me to be able to put crosshairs on a target. I would still have to make sure everything else is in line. Guns are pretty much "perfect form", if you get my meaning. That is the challenge with a weapon that incorporates the "human variable" into the mechanism itself. Personally, I find it more rewarding to get "close" with a bow than punch bullseyes with a rifle.
Good thread Michael. I to shoot instinctively and truly believe it is the best option in the moment of truth on a live moving target.
Great looking bow but agree you need to update the grip if wanted.
I shot a buck Friday night and it was 100% instictive. I didnt have a chance to even think about the shot it just happened, just like a quick throw to first base but quicker. It supprised me the speed at which it all took place.
QuoteOriginally posted by hvyhitter:
I use a "darts" analogy. After many years on leagues I can hit the "tripples" just about every time. Shooting a bow is exactly the same. Muscle memory through practice.........
don't think this is an accurate comparison..... in darts you have the exact same known distance so yes it is muscle memory through repetition....
Many of the aiming methods seem to become "instinctive" or whatever you want to call it. In hunting situations I don't have time to use an aiming system. 20 yards and under it just becomes natural for me to stare at the spot and put the arrow there.
EXACTLY!!!!
Mike, you hit the nail right on the head! Nice bow & shooting.
Shooting instinctively works fine; that's what I do. It does have limitations, of course. You are limited by the ability of your onboard computer system and your form. Just like some guys are good high school pitchers, but no better, and some guys are Cy Young winners and get paid to pitch, not all instinctive shooters will be good at it. On the flip side, the ability to win the state indoor league or field tournament gapping doesn't always translate to success in the woods, either. Deer don't stand at clearly marked yardages to enable you to properly gap them. Gapping, or some form of using a "sight," so to speak, is clearly superior if you want to win tournaments; there is no dispute on that issue. It is going to give you the most consistent accuracy in an objective test. However, I think there is very little difference in practical field accuracy at 20 yards and in, for people who are considered good at both ways of shooting, and the instinctive method is quicker to use in the field, generally. The biggest problem I see with instinctive shooters is that at longer ranges, they cease being able to trust the system they've chosen and subconsciously start to figure yardage and "aim," instead of trusting their computer and letting the eye trigger the shot with good form. What happens is that they neither focus on the spot nor make a good shot, form wise, because distance fills them with doubt, and become convinced that they must never attempt anything longer than the conventional twenty or less. If you are going to shoot instinctive, trust your computer and let the eye trigger the release; don't mix methods. Of course, that doesn't mean that one should let it rip in the field at deer, no matter how far; it just means that one needs to be committed and trust the method one has chosen to use. JMO.
Totally agree. I have a friend that makes shooting so hard because he has to guess the yardage then deside where to hold the point of the arrow under the target then think about it all while at full draw.. wondering if it really is what he thinks it is... :banghead:
One last thought: one reason gap (sight shooters, essentially) shooters typically do better on paper and in any objective accuracy event is that the sight (arrow) gives them something to focus on, every time. This point of focus is consistent and repeatable. The point of focus for an instinctive shooter is subjective and varying from shot to shot. It takes someone with really, really strong focus to pick a concrete spot on different targets and from different yardages (farther out always being harder, because it's harder to pick a spot at distance) consistently. I think that's why we all tend to have those days when it's so easy, when every arrow just seems to find the mark, and then we come back the next day and leave arrow holes that look like a shotgun blast. If you've played basketball, you remember those times when the basket looked as big as a train tunnel, when you put it up from anywhere at any time and just knew it was going in. This is a psychological phenomenon that has been studied many times: being "in the zone." No one has yet been able to adequately explain it or been able to bottle it for sale. If you are an instinctive shooter, you must accept this, because this is your reality. If you are spraying them, assuming it's not a form issue, it's probably because your mind is not focused well that day. That's why I judge my shots by the quality of the shot itself, form-wise, and not by the result of the shot. The only thing I can really control is the execution, because the onboard computer is subject to malfunction from time to time. Don't let it discourage you.
If you are missing, the majority should be high or low, not left or right. If you are missing left and right, look to your form, or your tuning, not to the method of shooting.
Lots of good points. I love to tinker. Always looking for ways to improve my shooting. The thing is for me...I am primarily a whitetail hunter. Most of my shots are 20 yards or less. I've messed around with various aiming methods and I agree that this is the way to go on targets. One year I spent a lot of time and effort really learning how to gap shoot. I mean I worked on it a TON and got very good at it. Then came deer season and the first deer I wanted to shoot. After 12 months of working on my gap method, it all went out the window when the deer came by and I ended up shooting her completely "instinctive...or whatever you want to call it". I believe Howard Hill was the guy who said something along the lines of "decide if you want to be a target shooter or a bowhunter because they are completely different things" At least for me, I am beginning to agree with that after 20 years of trying all sorts of things out. I use Rick Welches method of shooting and it works well for me. But I don't think in terms of yardage. I pick a spot and shoot it. However, I agree that after 20 yards this becomes very difficult. So to rectify this...I just don't shoot at game animals past 20 yards.
Here is another interesting thing. I swear this is true...at least for me. If I put some hex heads on my arrows and go "stump shooting", I will shoot better hands down than when I stand in front of a target and pump arrows into it. I've done it enough times to know that this is not a fluke. So this year about 3 months before bow season I stopped shooting targets...except for up close form work. I put hex heads on my arrows and I walk around my back yard shooting at leaves, etc. Without a doubt I shoot better this way. I do work on my form a lot..but when I'm out shooting and actually aiming at something...I find it is best to not think about form at this point. It's either ingrained or it isnt. I focus on the spot. The more I focus the better I do.
Yep I look at what I want to hit draw get a good solid anchor and let her go , don't see the arrow point or sight window. I can switch up from a recurve to a longbow shoot a few arrows and I'm good to go. Sometime I don't get to shoot for weeks and my longest was months this year but was right where I left off when I pulled the bow out.Don't care a bit about shooting bullseye target , I do a lot of stump shooting and have a 3D round in my front pasture and I shoot my best one arrow at a time then on to the next shot and always at a different distance .Never had a critter stand still and let me shoot a group of arrows into its chest at XX yards. I shoot with my bow canted , kneeling , sitting , laying on my stomach with the bow inches from the ground , ect ect. So yea I say I shoot instinctive, can I pound a paper target prob not like a pro but I'm in it for hunting not a score on a target, can I put down an animal with my arrow , I think I do well in the field. I'm sure my minds eye sees what it sees during the way I shoot but I don't , I see the little spot or hair or that little crease behind that shoulder. So no I don't think about it I just do it and it works for me , heck just yesterday afternoon I shot a boar with a longbow that I just got 3 days earlier. I was stalking and just got on top of a tank dam and about 20ft down the off side was a boar walking along. No time for thinking I drew locked up on him and the arrow was gone right in his chest it all happened in seconds and in very low light while he was walking .Standing there and looking back to where he was was prob over 30yds heck I just threw the ball at him and it worked ( he only went about 60yds , I was a good half inch off on shot placement but I can live with that and in the words of B.W - I like it a lot ). Everyone has a way of doing it and I will continue to throw the ball , Carry On .......
,,,,,Sam,,,,
Under 20 or 25 yards (depending on how fast you're rig is) nobody has to stress too much over distance, regardless of aiming method.
Someone mentioned that any method becomes somewhat "instinctive". I guess I agree. I aim with the arrow and describe myself as a gap shooter, although, I don't always remember having done much aiming. I don't really think of the shot in terms of yards to the target and inches of gaps. I just learn what the sight picture looks like.
I used to shoot a lot of running rabbits and other fast targets with a shotgun and I used the barrel to aim. It never slowed me down.
I don't shoot groups because an animal is going let me shoot a group. I shoot groups to measure my accuracy and precision.
I don't just shoot groups at known distances. I often shoot a group into my bag target or 3-d deer from varying distances, shooting positions and angles.
The target (paper or whatever) is for catching my arrow and recording performance.
This time of year (hunting season), I pay special attention to my first shot. A shot at game is often the first shot of the day or, at least, after a long sit, and there's no warm up.
When talking typical hunting distances, I think we focus too much on aiming method (or the names we use for aiming methods).
At these close distances, you can probably do well regardless of hoe you choose to point the arrow if everything else is right.
1st, I am always amazed by the number of guys that brag about how accurate instinctive is/can be and then when we get on the 3D range 99% get walked on by 75-100 points plus. If you can't shoot a foam target what makes you think you can do it when it's the real deal????
2nd, aiming with the gap system takes about a blink of an eye, I shoot swinging ball targets, running targets, aerial targets with no problem, in fact so does everyone I know that gaps.
3rd, I played the instinctive game for 3 years, I thought keeping it simple would be better. Now I look back and it seems like I was saying I needed Velcro shoes because shoe laces was just too hard.
IMO learning gaps is 10 times faster than becoming consistent at spraying and praying. I mean really when it comes down to it, wouldn't you want to consistently drill deer in the kill zone or nail the 10 ring or do you really like the "nostalgic" gut shot/5 ring? Achieving good form and proficiency is hard enough, you don't need to take the core of archery out of it just to be "trad"
IMO for every 1 archer that can truly shoot instinctive well there are probably 1,000's that don't. I'm willing to bet that instinctive has turned away and has gotten traditional archery poo poo'ed more than anything else, fact is most people don't like to miss just because it's the "cool way to shoot". Seriously how many pro anything sports players do you personally know? That's my point!!!
Well, to be honest, at short ranges I don't see much difference, and I have not seen many trad shooters, no matter which aiming method they used, that I would call very accurate to begin with. Let's be honest, there are very few really good shots with traditional bows, or fingers in general. The best Olympic recurve shooter in the world wouldn't even get a cup of coffee in an open compound event; it's all relative. In my opinion, lack of proper form has more to do with the lack of traditional accuracy than the aiming method does. It's hard to shoot well and do it consistently with fingers. I've tried gapping, I've tried 3-under; my relative lack of accuracy with a recurve has always bothered me, coming from a serious target wheelie background. However, once I went down in bow weight and started to seriously address my shooting form, I found that I was pretty good as long as I trusted my computer and committed to the shot. Gapping and/or three under never worked for me, and I do realize that instinctive shooting limits my accuracy potential AT DISTANCE. However, if all I was concerned with was absolute accuracy, I wouldn't be shooting a recurve to begin with. There is such a thing as acceptable accuracy and accepting certain limitations; I accept that I should not shoot at animals past 25 yards. You have to remember, 2bird, that when I shot compounds I would have said the same things about you and your gapping system that you just said about shooting instinctively. It's all relative.
I'm happy enough with the accuracy potential of a "traditional" bow. Shot well, it can be pretty accurate.
For me, a compound doesn't enter into it because it isn't a bow as far as I'm concerned. A bow (stick and string) is what it is. Others can do what they want but I don't have any interest in compounds.
If I had to have greater accuracy than I could get with a bow I'd grab a rifle. I do grab a rifle for some of my squirrel hunting.
But, when shooting the bow I strive for all the accuracy and precision I can get out of it.
I want it to be fun. Compounds became no fun for me, mainly because I am such a perfectionist that I simply couldn't accept any miss, ever. I'd shoot 59x indoors and stomp out disgusted because I considered myself a failure. I was miserable. I also made the compound business my business, and as soon as it became my job (making bow parts), I didn't care to do it for fun (if it could be called that after a point) anymore. I got as far away from competitive archery as possible, but I went too far in the other direction, I think. I started with too heavy a bow and followed a bunch of grip it and rip it advice. I've moved back towards using sound form and actually working on form. Most people consider me a good shot, but my expectations are so high that I would never say that. I have finally relaxed enough to accept that breaking arrows every time is not going to happen with a recurve, and I've come to change my perspective on shooting to an evaluation of the process rather than the result. If I make a good shot, and I miss the spot, I accept that, due to the lack of a "sight." It's going to happen. However, I will rarely miss a six inch square inside 25 yards anymore. Sometimes I will miss badly, but it's usually because I let my form slip. I can live with that. I have come to accept that there is such a thing as accurate enough, and that I do not have to be the best in order to enjoy something.
I shoot instinctive....I see what I want to hit cause that's what I'm looking at...sometimes I don't even remember drawing the bow on my best shots.
Gap and instinctive are NOT the same,,...Nor 'gray'.
I couldn't gap my way out of a wet paper bag.
One aiming system is conscious(gap) and the other is (subconscious)...two TOTALLY DIFFERENT methods.
Some draw, anchor, aim, then release...
Some aim, draw, anchor, release....
I like to hear how others shoot, but don't like being told how I shoot by someone that has not clue how I shoot.
I shoot instinctive, and Rod Jenkins shoots the gap method, yet Rod has said on this very forum, other than our aiming methods, he and I are doing the exact same thing, he never stops pulling either, he just does the same thing I do much slower.
We are all not the same. Some can figure the trajectory to the moon, and others can fly the rockets.....best not to switch them at lift off. That's what makes the world go around. No need in arguing over it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
I made this shot just this year....right in front of 6 compounders....100 yards at midnight....instinctive.
Needless to say, it blew their minds, and one bowyer now has 6 bows on order because of it...I'm not even kidding...
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/100yardshotinthedark.jpg)
.
.
.
.
Sometimes is best to listen and learn, .....that's something I've learned a long time ago...and I'm still learning. I got my shot down years ago....by listening and applying. Not arguing.
Someone on this very thread made fun of my fletching once, yet after years on this forum, I've never seen him with a pic of a dead animal.
.
.
.
.
Yea what Terry said , I was sure I knew how I shot a bow....
,,,Sam,,,
Making shooting fun and accuracy can go together very well. I don't get the vibe that some people make here that in order to be accurate I need a formal shooting session. The benefit of using traditional gear is the fact I can shoot very accurately at hunting distances without the requirement of orthodox form.
I agree. You don't need a "formal shooting session" to shoot accurately.
However, in order to objectively measure accuracy, some degree of formality is required. Otherwise, it's not very objective.
I'm all for having fun...stumping, shooting other interesting targets or hunting instead of standing on a line just punching holes in paper. I just think that if somebody can hit what they shoot at, they can hit paper too.
So I don't get this idea that one can hit everything except paper. It's just a target. Either you can hit it or you can't.
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. Most people don't like shooting paper because there is no way to rationalize that hole (those holes) in the one ring. Paper is a harsh mistress.
QuoteOriginally posted by mgf:
Either you can hit it or you can't.
Nope... I don't like it... no room for excuses in there. :D
In all fairness, some people, especially those who use the instinctive method, tend to shoot better on certain kinds of targets than they do on others. A one spot is hard to focus on for some people. Instinctive shooting is all about the eye triggering the shot, and if the focus is weak or not there at all, the result will be less than spectacular. Some days, the small shot-out hole in the center of my bag is lit-up by the sun, while all else is in shadow. I can knock the middle out at those times, even from forty yards. Other times, the whole bag is lit, or shadowed, and the hole (which I use for my aiming point) is vague. My groups tend to be bigger then.
What is the difference between a golf ball at 20 yards or a piece of paper at 20 yards.....really the choice is personal. I can't see how me shooting at a piece of paper is harder in some way than hitting a golf ball or the reverse.
Because I don't shoot paper does not make me an instinctive shooter. I do draw, and increase pull at anchor while I'm looking at the target. I don't consciously gap, but I am probably doing so subconsciously. I know I'm aiming because I'm pointing my arrow at the target.
For me at least, it has a lot to do with eye sight. I am largely colour blind... Red and green look very much the same and I can barely distinguish yellow from white.(can't even see yellow highlighter markers). Contrastingly, I am very keen on movement and depth/3D space and can judge distances with a fair amount of accuracy.