Trad Gang

Where do you start?

What are the steps you take to get the bow or Arrow tuned?

I have  a bow that I love but am having fits getting good arrow flight. The arrows hit where I want but porpoise and fish tail. When I have broadheads on it hits right.

Its a  59 Kodiak replica. 53 Lbs at 28. It has a  feather rest.

I draw 28 3/4 inches. the arrows are 35-55 spine cut to 29 3/4 inches with 250 grains up front.

Last year I had 55-75 Arrows that were 32 inches with 350 grains up front with the same issues.

Help please.  I have tried changing the nock point up and down as much as an inch. I have changed the brace height from 7-9 inches.

I'm Frustrated but determined to make this bow work. It was shooting good for me this spring but now its not. I Cannot figure it out. I assume its something I do differently but cannot put a pin on it!

Help     :help:

One of these guys that knows carbon arrows can help you get sqared away on where to start, but there will be a spine group that should fit your bow at your draw length, and you should start there.  I would say bare shaft the arrows, but unless your form is pretty good and you know something about what you are doing, this can be an exercise in frustration, as it might be form problems and not arrow problems that cause your arrows to show weak or stiff.  Do you know any experienced trad shooters who are considered good shots and knowledgeable?  If so, get one of them to help you by watching you shoot first.

Paul,  I have no issues with any other bow I own.  I spent an hour or better with a guy who has a similar bow by Vintage works who was a s stumped as I was.

Any chance one or both limbs is twisted?  If not, the 35/55 definitely seems like it would be weak at your draw length, but might not if you cut it shorter or dropped point weight.  The stiffer shafts that long might be weak, too.  Have you bare shafted them?  Feathers will lie to you.  Normally, hitting right with proper form would mean they come out tail left (weak).  Porpoising is a nock point issue, although a very weak shaft might porpoise with a proper nock point height because it is making contact with the riser at the shot.  My best guess is drop point weight on the first shafts, and perhaps cut some (a little at a time) off the second shafts if you have gotten the same results with bare shafts.

By the way, when you say "hitting right," I'm taking that to mean they group right of your aim.  If you mean they are nock right, then you are probably talking too stiff, but that doesn't sound like it's your problem.  A broadhead will accentuate any problems with your arrow choice, for sure.

The arrows are Hitting right of my aim point by about 4 inches at 15 yards.

I no longer have the 55/75's everyone here on a  previous post(and my results from bare shafting) said they were too stiff.   I got them close but was still getting a  porpoise from them. I didn't like having 350 Grains on the point.

This year I have the 35/55 which came highly recommended here. They were flying good for me in the beginning of the year but now are not.  They bare shafted well.

I used both Fast Fight and B55 strings that are both broke in and messed with the Brace Height between 7-9 inches.

Limbs are not twisted. They seem to bend evenly as my buddy stood and watched for it.

I forgot to mention if it helps, this bow has a  feather rest on it.

For what it is worth, I have had fits trying to dial in carbon arrows; I shoot a 45lb Wes Wallace, and I draw right at 28" w/ a ff string.  Someone, I think Damascus Dave, said to go back to aluminum, which I had been shooting before.  I dug out a 1916 that I had forgotten and it shoots just fine.  I have found that most people tend to shoot overspined arrows, and that was my problem, but I was hitting left all the time with feathers even when the bare shafts flew ok.  I would fix one thing at a time.  Fix the nock point first.  When the porpoising is gone, then evaluate the arrow.  As a last idea, it is possible that you cut the arrows too short to start with, and now they are way too stiff and cause so much shelf contact that nothing you do will give you an accurate reading.  The only way to know anything is to make the arrow change somehow, and go from there.  In other words, go way up on point weight and see if that changes something; if not, go way down.  Move the nock point way up, till you are sure that it must give a nock high indication, and slowly move it down a touch at a time till it resolves the porpoising issue.  If you can't make it stop porpoising by any means, then you either have an arrow that is way too weak or stiff and is causing shelf contact that can't be resolved with nock point (or that shelf rest is the issue, but I've not used one of those).  Unless you can make the arrow move (change the indication of the arrow, either weaker or stiffer), you have no idea what to do to fix it.

Know anyone with some 2016 aluminums?  If so, see if you can shoot some, and if they fly well you know you've gotten those carbons too weak or stiff.

"They were flying good for me in the beginning of the year but now are not. They bare shafted well. "

Cyclic,

This statement ALWAYS catches this coach's eye. IF they WERE flying good a while back, WHAT CHANGED??

We (trad archers) are more often than not lax in recording our setups. But when we get a combination that is satisfactory, do we write down ALL the equipment parameters? All the arrow specs, ALL the bow specs.  I suggest that IF everything is the same with the equipment, then we SHOULD get the same arrow flight!!!

Most archers are too quick to change equipment when a good shooting combination suddenly is NOT shooting good.  We tend to overlook the MOST variable factor in the shot -- US!! And yes, I think that an execution change can be on only one bow while with other bows, the change doesn't show up.

If our shot execution changes (even a little) we can get arrow flight that LOOKS like a tuning issue when it is really SOMETHING in our execution that has changed.

So we start changing our tuning parameters, get no resolution, and since we didn't keep track of where we started, we have no way of going back to the original tune -- can't remember what it was.

So my overall suggestion is don't be too quick to start tuning when the shot suddenly isn't what you expect or have experienced before. It probably isn't equipment tune, it is more likely that it is the archer's "tune."

I do think that the ~.500 spine arrow you are using should be in the ball park but 250 up front seems high to me.

Anyway, this is not a direct help for your problem, but may help in the future.

Good luck with it.

Arne

PS. You didn't mention if you have checked the tiller of the bow.

Some people who know a whole lot more about arrow spines than I do have posted on various forums that they have found GT carbons to vary quite a bit, spine wise.  Different guys have said they found everything from low .400 to high .500 spines in certain batches of them using spine testers.  One guy claimed he had a batch that was a mismarked 55/75 batch.  Maybe that's what you've got?  No way to know that without a spine tester, though.

Yep, Arne mentioned a few things there.  You did seem sure that it's not a form issue, and tiller can normally be addressed with nock point height unless it is completely screwed up.  You've got to make the arrow change it's indication somehow in order to have any idea how to make it go the way you want it to go, though.  What you are describing now indicates a weak arrow IF shelf contact and or form is not the issue.

Something about this setup just seems crazy to me. I shoot mid-40# bows (43 - 46) and shoot a 3555, 29.5" in length with 186gr up front, (total weight including insert and point).

You are drawing it 3/4" more than I am with a shaft slightly longer, on a heavier bow and WAY more weight up front. I can't help thinking that arrow is weak for your bow.

Not disputing Arne's point that if it was right and now isn't, the shooter has most likely changed, but was it REALLY right to begin with? That just seems underspined to me.

That was my original Question.

I started as shooting good For me and something has changed,  I accept and realize its probably me.  I have spent the whole summer trying to get back to good flight before now.

I have finally concluded just prior to my post that something changed and I cant get back to square one.

Here is the reason for my post and Initial Question.......

When you get a new bow How do you start from Square One?  I want to start all over with this bow and work into good flight.

Ron, I think you hit the nail on the head.  When I shot this spring, Maybe my draw was shorter or maybe I was plucking it and unluckily received great flight. I spent all summer blind Baling and shooting. I have been shooting in general better than ever.

I need to start over with this bow.

Cyclic:  Get the brace height where you want it (I always like 8" on my W. Wallace bows).  Set your nock; I have my usual nock height marked on my bow square, and I start there.  Set the bow up as you will actually shoot it, i.e., silencers, quiver on, etc.  I generally don't get serious about tuning with a new string till I've goofed with it for a few days and know it won't move.  Try those 35/55s bare shaft with a light point, like 125, and see what they do.  If we are right and you are now weak, then that will stiffen them up and will tell you where to go from there.  If still weak, cut 1/4" off and try again, and so on.  That's how I do it.  If the arrow is not showing any crazy signs of too weak or stiff, I will play with the nock point till I'm satisfied with that, then play with length and or point weight till I get a very slightly weak indication; just right of the bull with nock slightly kicked left.  Add feathers and shoot.  That's how I do it.  Good luck.

Paul,  I threw on a  150 practice point and it flew better. I may not be able to use the arrows however because that makes them about 7 grains per pound.

Ok, that is a bit light.  As an option, though, you have some room to cut, and 1/4" can really stiffen carbons, so you might do that and then go back to a heavier point and get your weight back that way.

Thanks for the suggestion.  I have no more room to cut these arrows.

Tomorrow when it is light out however, I am going to change the fast flight string for a B50 that I used to use on it last year. I may play with building out the strike plate some too.

I have a  long bow which is the same weight but not cut to center with a  b50 string and it shoots the arrows incredible.

I just want to get this bow to work for when I travel to WI in a  few weeks to hunt with Family.

Also I want to mention I shot some wood arrows from the bow today with Good results which helps me know that My issue is mainly with the arrows I am using.

That has to be frustrating Charlie,hope you get it figured out soon.

  I shoot .500 spine off my 45# 21st Century and my 43# Toelke Lynx. 28 1/2" with 200 gr up front. Good arrow flight.

                                                 Good Shooting,
                                                                Craig

Thanks Craig! Good luck this fall.

Charlie,
My 2 cents worth is that your arrows are too weak for the bow at your draw length. You might think it is the act of shooting that is giving you the odd results, but I kind of doubt it.

My thinking is that you need a 400 carbon at about 29.5" to 30" with somewhere between 125 to 200 gr. up front.

Switching to the B50 will get you closer with what you have, but you might also need less point weight and/or building out the side plate. Experiment to see what happens.

It sounds like your shooting form is fine.

I hope you are well my friend.
Joe

DangNabit Joe, Just gave some of them away LOL.

I spent the evening hours after work shoveling2 tons of Rubble. Hope to shoot more this weekend.

Thank you for the suggestions. I will not give up on this Bow its just hits and shoots well when it is good. I see it like a  good employee. It may take some guidance but will be worth your weight in gold after some break in and tinkering.

I shoot 55/75's out of two bows. One is 53 lbs @29", the other is 56lbs @29". My arrows are full length. The easiest way for me to start tuning is to change the centershot of the bow. If your 35/55's are too weak add a layer of velcro to your side plate and see what happens. Centershot on a stick bow is overrated IMHO.
Another easy way is to add some electric tape between your nock and feathers for some added rear weight. That should stiffen them up a bit and give you an indication of what's going on.

Ok, for an update.

I swapped the string for a  B50 and bumped out the strike plate a little.

Much better arrow flight. Thank you for the suggestions.

A new issue though, I get a little porpoise, Nock high in flight and the feather rest has taken a  bad beating. The outside feather is ready to fall off.

Is this just a nocking point issue?

I want to thank all of you for your support this far.

Could be; sometimes you might think you are too high on the nock when in reality you need to go up because the arrow is kicking off the shelf and causing the nock high, not too high of a nock point as it appears.  Some people need a higher nock point than others because of finger pressure; you might be using too much of one finger, perhaps. Sometimes too stiff of an arrow will cause it to kick, but I doubt that's your issue, based on what has been going on before.

Where do we start tuning a bow and arrow was your initial question I believe. Lets see if this helps any...

-Start off with the bow at mid range recommended brace height.

-Check on 3 Rivers or Stu's arrow spine calculator for a starting point. Both are the same, and if fed the correct information they will be very close.

-Set nocking point higher than needed and tune for up and down arrow flight first using bare shaft tuning or paper tuning. If using bare shaft tuning, the bare shaft results must be compared to the fletched shaft (Adcock's Tuning). The Adcock tuning can be found at A&H web site under tuning. If your bare shaft hits below the fletched arrows the string nock needs to be lowered, if high raise nock point.

-Always use two string nock points. I like to tie on my string nocks, use a material that is a least the same size as your serving material. The same size or larger nock material will prevent your serving from spreading and causing damage to your string.

-After your up and down is set, it's time to fine tune your dynamic spine. Once again using Adcock's tuning... Right hand shooters, a weak spine will be shown by the bare shaft hitting to the right of the fletched arrow and a stiff spine will hit to the left of the fletched arrow. Shoot several groups to make sure your results are consistent.

-For a slightly stiff spine you can increase your point weight or increase your brace height (among other things).

-For a slightly weak spine you can decrease your point weight or decrease your brace height. For a weak dynamic spine you can also add an extra set of string silencers to your string. You can also add to the side plate (among other things).

-After bare shaft tuned I will weigh the field points and broadheads to make certain they are the same. I have always found that broadheads fly perfect after the bare shaft or paper tuning has been done correctly as long as the weigh the same (no matter how big).

-For wood arrows I do the same thing, except I use broadheads in the place of bare shafts. A wood bare shaft can and will break fairly easily.

Good luck and have fun with it. I have found that a perfectly tuned bow is far more forgiving. I personally hunt and target shoot with the same arrows. Personally I have found that ~10gpp and ~15% FOC works best for me. Good Luck!!!