The Target Panic and Shot Control DVD is now available at the A&H Archery website. It can be found in the DVD section in the menu on the left of the opening page. I believe it will answer many of the questions that exist about target panic and it shows a clear and simple path to shot control. I hope you find it worthy of your time.
Thanks to everyone that helped me put this together.
Joel Turner
I will be ordering it next month. Don't think I have TP but always looking to sharpen my mental focus. It was fun flinging arrows with you on the practice range at packwood.
Thanks for the tip Clickerman. I just ordered the DVD.
I took Joel's clinic in May and found it to be a wealth of information. I also just ordered the dvd to reinforce the ideas Joel teaches.
Just ordered the DVD Joel!
I'm going to order Friday. Thanks Joel!
Rob
On the way - thanks Joel!!!
Will order on Monday, thanks Joel.
Ordered it last night!!! Target panic has been a problem for years. I don't even shoot that poorly by myself but when I am shooting with a group......I may as well not bother, it is just a sad situation. I hope the DVD helps. :banghead:
Well worth the $$. Joel's concepts are spot on! I would highly encourage anyone to view this DVD. Very interesting information even if you do not suffer from target panic.
Just finished watching the DVD, and I learned a lot from it. I'm sure I'll play it a few more times before I get everything out of it. The DVD should help anyone shoot better, whether they currently suffer from target panic or not, because it shows you what you need to concentrate on, what is a waste of energy to concentrate on, an effective way to focus your concentration where it is needed, and how to become aware before you release the arrow if you have lost your focus.
I received and watched the DVD yesterday. There are a lot of good stuff to see. I tried something with feathers also yesterday to get a trigger. I put some feathers on an short aluminum shaft over a smaller carbon shaft (to move the feathers on the shaft to get the right position) for checking how to get the feather to the nose.
It did not work out. Some tips on other possible "trigger" are welcome. I shoot split-finger with gloves and have big eye-glasses with a low anchor.
Thanks.
Watched the video, and understand the concept, there is just one thing that's bugging me. I understand the focus needs to be on the pulling movement so as to avoid anticipatory thoughts. What's never mentioned though, is what makes the shot go off when the feather hits your nose? If you're not thinking about the feather hitting your nose, why would you release when you're only thinking of pulling?
It seems that in the back of your mind you know the release has to happen when the feather hits your nose (or whatever trigger you use), so you will have to make mental checks occasionally to see if it has happened. This would lead to anticipating the feather touching the nose, which would lead to releasing just before it got there.
Is this trigger somehow subconsciously developed?
I think we have to make a distinction here between cognitive thinking and awareness. One of the examples Joel has in the DVD is if you're pulling, and the thought occurs to you, "wow, this is taking a long time to get to my nose," that thought is cognitive, or conceptual thinking about an action, as opposed to actual physical awareness of an action that is taking place, and is an interruption in your concentration, and means that you should let down the bow and start over. He constantly asks the question, "what were you thinking?" because humans tend to blur the distinction between conceptualizing and doing. We may have conceptual thoughts about pulling the bow that seem real to us, but they're not; the only thing that is real is the physical feeling of pulling the bow. If we can distinguish what our conceptual thoughts are from our physical awareness, then we can recognize the cognitive thoughts that interrupt our concentration in time to do something about it (let down the bow), as opposed to just guessing what went wrong after the shot.
When you say the mantra, "Keep pulling, keep pulling....." the reason you're saying it is to block cognitive thoughts about pulling the bow, and instead, just pull it.
The reason you release the arrow when the feather touches your nose is that you have made a plan to do that in advance. The physical touch of the feather against your nose triggers the release, not the thought of the feather touching your nose. Ideally, you should be thinking about nothing as you pull the bow, you should instead be physically aware of everything that is happening.
I think everything I said so far is in agreement with Joel's DVD. However, I would go one step further and say that the ideal would be to do away with the mantra and just experience the pull of the bow. The mantra is a step designed to do away with cognitive thoughts during the shot, but the goal should be to do away with cognitive thoughts without having to say the mantra. Joel may disagree with what I just said, and if he does, I hope he will chime in and maybe I will learn something.
I believe Joel states in the video that he only uses the mantra now in extreme stress scenarios. This would align with what you are thinking McDave. I believe the goal is to utilize the mantra to program the mind???
Yes, I forgot about him saying that. So maybe he wouldn't disagree with what I said. Yes, the mantra is used to program the mind to focus on the ACT of pulling the bow (what I call awareness) and to exclude thoughts ABOUT shooting the bow (cognitive or conceptual thinking) because thoughts about shooting the bow are a major cause of target panic.
Amen! I have been playing with the mantra in an attempt to improve my shot execution. It is possible to say the mantra and still not focus on the action. At least for me and my ADD it is! Focused concentration on anything is a skill . I believe for most of us, it has to be learned and practiced to be part of how we execute an act. Just my experience!
One thing that might help you is to try to increase your awareness of what's happening while you're shooting the bow. With your ADD, you have the mental capacity to focus on a lot more than just "pulling." Your mind will use that capacity, whether you like it or not. It will either fill that capacity with thoughts that are destructive to your shot process, or you could increase your awareness of what's going on during your shot process and actually improve your accuracy. For example, can you feel where your drawing forearm ends up at full draw? Is it really behind the arrow? Or are you just guessing where it is? Can you feel your fingers relax at full draw, or are you just flattening the back of your hand and trying to match the cant of the bow? There are endless ways you can increase your physical awareness and improve your shooting, and each one of them replaces a conceptual thought that robs you of your focus. Your mind only has so much capacity, and if you fill that capacity with awareness, it has no room for conceptual thoughts that take you out of the here and now.
Thanks for the feedback McDave. My "ADD" comment was more of an attempt to poke fun at shortcomigs in mental shot execution than referring to a diagnosed condition. However, you are exactly correct. My blind bale time has really helped me with what you are referring to, but I really hadn't been able to articulate the awareness concept as well as you. Thanks!
The mantra is used to direct concentration into a muscle group. Because of neurolinguistic programming, what you say is what you think. Remember that anytime someone knows something is important and they want to direct concentration to that thing (a specific movement) they will verbalize something like "Cmon, Cmon, Cmon" That is their mantra at that time, for that movement. I am just wanting people to be more specific with the direction of the concentration by using the words that already mean the movements. Hence, if the desired movement is pulling, we use that word in the mantra. Keep is a word that we use constantly if we want a movement to continue. So I like to use it in the mantra to make it more rhythmic. When I first discovered this phenomenon, I noticed that my student's movement went exactly with the speed of the mantra I was speaking to them.
It sounds from the conversations in this thread so far, people are starting to think within their shot, that is the underlying goal of this whole program. A realization of what you are actually thinking about during the shot. Formulating a specific plan for your shot, each and every time, and not shooting that arrow unless the shot is going according to that plan.
A cognitive thought process that causes your body shock will never become automatic for the conscious mind. The subcon wants to make it automatic so it can precisely brace the body for that shock. That is the hard wired response of self preservation. The subcon wants to let the arrow go to get the body out of tension and brace the body for the recoil of the bow going off. That is why there is no recoil bracing when you know you are not going to shoot the arrow.
I only have to say my mantra under extreme stress because I have engrained the concentration into my shot sequence. I am totally aware of the movement that gets me to my trigger. So aware, in fact, that I know when something is not going correctly. I have to use the mantra under extreme stress to remind myself of that shot separation between aiming and shot activation.
McDave is correct in saying the subcon will release the arrow when the trigger is hit because you have made that decision before the shot is started.
Remember the plan of the shot. It has two specific jobs within it. 1. Draw back and aim (once you are done with the aim, watch it to keep it.) 2. Switch the concentration to the movement that gets you to your trigger by saying (and thinking)your mantra. When the trigger hits, or clicks, or whatever it does you release the arrow by relaxing your hand.
If the shot is not following that plan, recognize that something is not right, and LET IT DOWN!!!!! You cannot get better at concentration if you shoot bad arrows. Refuse to let an arrow go unless it is perfect in concentration. It only takes about two let downs followed by thought analysis to really understand what you are actually thinking about.
I hope everyone is enjoying the dvd!!!!
Just ordered the DVD. Can't wait to watch it!
Got my DVD yesterday. This video and my phone conversation with Joel are the bests things I have ever done for my shooting.
There are some Indiana whitetails that are in trouble this year.
Rob
I spoke with Joel several months back once I'd realized TP had completely come to dominate my shooting. What he told me made perfect sense....all of it. However, I had to take baby steps with the mantra.....first thing was just getting to anchor without releasing. Anchor, Anchor, Anchor. Wasn't worried about what happened afterwards at that point.
Let me start out by saying that a year ago I attended Rod Jenkins' clinic. Absolutely the best thing I have spent money on in archery....period. After 4 months of BB and Bridge work I began to hunt and compete again and for two months things went very well. Then something broke down in my shot routine and TP took hold. I began to seek solutions and after months of frustration, I finally gave Joel a call. I'd like to say that all went well from that point, but it didn't. Thus the purpose of my post.
During a conversation with Rod, he told me I had a shot routine problem and that going back to the basics of his program would resolve the issues. He also knew that I was stubborn and committed enough to work through it, so I returned to the drills.
I struggled for months to gain control over my shot routine and after a few months I had gotten to the point where I could hold at anchor for maybe 1/2 second......certainly not long enough to pull through to conclusion in the proper manner. So TP still owned my butt. I shot better in competition, but not anywhere near my potential, and with hunting season on the horizon, I wanted to get this conquered.
At this point I knew I could successfully go back to what Joel had taught me. The DVD came yesterday and just reconfirmed everything I wanted to accomplish and how, but there's one aspect of Joel's teaching that causes me issues......the physical trigger itself. I can't put a clicker on my bow, nor am I going to use a tab sear or something mounted on the back of the bow.....it has to be the feather to the nose or nothing.
I am right handed, and shoot right wing feathers (have too much inventory and jig setups to change). Shooting cock feather in got close, but even tweaking the nock rotation made the contact inconsistent. Also, I shoot wood arrows so constant refletching doesn't work and want to get this dialed in using a couple of carbons and then fletch my woods the same way.
I took a few carbons and this time tried them cock feather up, and am getting closer to resolving this trigger issue. I would like to hear y'all's solutions for constant fletch/nose contact if you wouldn't mind. For the time being I am extremely pleased with having returned to using the Mantra and psycho trigger as I once again am in control of my shot, I just need to nail the fletch trigger aspect once and for all. Suggestions?
Rick Welch has long used the feather/nose anchor, and has experimented with many configurations. He is pretty easy going on many aspects of his style. For example, he prefers 3 under but doesn't insist on it. But he is pretty definite that if you want to use the nose anchor as a right-handed shooter, you need to use left wing feathers with the cock feather at 90 degrees or slightly higher.
That's not to say that nothing else will work, but that configuration is known to work very well.
Thanks Dave, and I may have to go LW in the end, but I just turned the nock so that the first hen feather is "in", and got the cock feather into a good position for my nose. Going to move the cock feather another 1/16" forward and see things work out.
Another thing you could possibly try is the modification to the nose anchor I now use. Rather than anchor with the feather touching the tip of my nose, I anchor with the feather touching my mustache just under my nose. I would imagine it would work equally well as a trigger either location. It occurred to me to try this after I noticed from pictures in Byron Ferguson's book that he evidently uses this anchor. It allows for feathers to be mounted slightly further back on the shaft and increases your point on maybe 5 yards. I've never tried using this anchor with RW feathers, but it might give you a little more leeway.
Good thought Dave. It doesn't really matter what the feather touches, as long as I can draw around between 1/16 and 1/8" to touch "something". I need to take a mirror out to my bench so I can work/test, etc.
Green, How close is the string to your face or forehead? I saw one guy using a kisser button to his forehead. Just a thought.
Rob
Interesting thought Rob.....don't think they'd allow the button in a 3D competition, but it's worth a look in the mirror to see.
I did get things worked out last night by going to a 5" feather as opposed to a 4" as it's just a tad taller. I moved them 1/16" further forward in the fletching jig and once I had them on the string I would just shoot them cock feather in...perfect. I don't turn my face to meet the arrow at full draw as the guys in Joel's video do, so I needed to locate one of the fletchings so that it stuck "up" and would touch the nose......I shoot with my bow/head more vertical.
Joel's DVD landed here in OZ last night .
Great stuff with lots of food for thought.
Thanks a bunch Joel .
I too have ordered the DVD just yesterday. Joel pretty much knocked my target panic out over the phone, but this should be worth watching to keep me reminded of the few things that I can totally forget in a pressure situation. Looking forward to watching it.
I am curious about the right hand shooter/RW feathers on wood arrows problem as well. I just got the DVD yesterday and it is definitely helping already (along with re-reading Kidwell and Asbell), but I need to figure out a better trigger. If you look through the Target Panic Reality Check thread, I believe someone put something on the arrow (like a sinew wrap? I will have to look it up later), although I wouldn't want anything that would hinder penetration for a hunting arrow or hang up in the target. I tried hanging some wood shavings on the arrow this morning; they fly off nicely and sort of work, but are obviously not that reliable! Using the broadhead touching the knuckle has always made me nervous...I have also heard of people leaving a finger up and releasing when it touches the grip. I am going to try it, although I suspect my stupid subconscious will figure out a way to defeat that one. So, I will very interested to see what alternate trigger ideas people come up with.
If anyone else is interested and hasn't looked it up yet, look at page 20 (!) of the TP Reality Check thread.
Ttt
Started suffering TP in my late teens I am 56 . Tried a lot of "cures" . Talked to Joel two days ago . I have learned more about my shooting since talking to him than previous 50 years. The big problem I have learned and wouldn't have learned without Joel is I really suck at keep pulling. I am getting better. Thank you Joel
Ravenhood -
Yes now that you admitted that you "really suck at pulling" is now time to address it by concentrating on pulling through to your anchor. Don't be afraid to install a clicker. It really helps you make the effort to come to full anchor and release. Joel also helped me through the issue I was having with target panic. Just yesterday I placed a small bottle cap on my target and I would hit it sometimes but most times its a near miss. I continue to work on form and consistency which in my opinion leads to accuracy.
Ron
Ron,I have put a clicker on ,that's what is showing me my pulling problem. The shot awareness is the real key for me , all made possible by Ironmind system
Just placed an order
Its been 9 days since I started Joels program , I am 100% pleased with my results. I just keep getting better.
It will probably take a lot of quality practice sessions with the clicker before you start to feel comfortable. I shot poorly for so long that just getting through one shot at a time with the clicker was pure agony and hard work. I now make every shot count and work solely on concentration and mechanics. Its really paying off. Not sure if the clicker will ever come off the bow but it sure helps me come to full anchor and I am starting to feel comfortable with shooting.
Ron
just bought one. sure hope it works for me !! Thanks Joel. Merry Christmas from us tradgangers in MS