How are ya,
Is this enough back tension? I understand you don't want'em squeezed too close together, for me this is 28" draw (http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv247/pukingguts/P1020574-1.jpg)
To much cant? string is a little tourqued. (http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv247/pukingguts/P1020576-1.jpg)
From what I can see, your tension looks to be pretty much in the upper back and shoulders. What you want to do is concentrate on the lower ledge of the draw side scapula (if can get someone to touch the lower scapula while drawing it will help concentration). Bring that point down and over to the spine as far as possible. Keep the bow side scapula extended toward the target (you should feel a stretch under your arm).
Would you say this bow is a bit heavy for me? She's 50#@28"
Your left shoulder is raised and tightened. It needs to be relaxed and down to help with consistent shooting. Push your left hand into a wall with light weight and lower and raise your bow arm shoulder. You will feel it when you relax and let that shoulder drop into the socket. Having it raised leaves your muscles fighting to hold the bow in place instead of letting bone to bone contact holding the bow in place on the draw stroke.
The cant angle looks fine. Your canting your neck and head. You want to cant from the waist in an even line thru the top of your head. canting just the head creates tension in your muscles that affects consistent form.
The goal is to make yourself look like Terry's form clock with everything at full draw in a straigh line and lined up with everything else.
QuoteOriginally posted by swampthing:
Would you say this bow is a bit heavy for me? She's 50#@28"
From the pitures it is difficult to say. The answer is also very subjective depending on who you ask. Some will say it is only the first shot that will count with a hunting bow, so as long as it is accurate, use it. IMO, you should be able to be in a hold position with your hunting bow weight for at least 15 seconds without loosing any back tension or collapsing. Another decent test is having the ability to have your bow and bow arm in an upright position and draw to hold for a 5 count, let up, then repeat without resting (bow still up) for a total of 5 or 6 reps.
You certainly look strong enough for a 50# bow.
[/QUOTE]Another decent test is having the ability to have your bow and bow arm in an upright position and draw to hold for a 5 count, let up, then repeat without resting (bow still up) for a total of 5 or 6 reps. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Of course if you cannot do this rep test the bow is too heavy for you, the good news is if you do this exercise several times everyday it will only be a couple of weeks before you're able to do it. :)
From the first photo it appears your head is cocked over a bit further than I'd like and maybe the chin a bit too low. Also your bow arm looks like you're using all muscle to hold the bow out there. If you hold (empty)your bow arm out and bend it at the elbow and your hand comes back and hits you in the head the the elbow joint need a bit of adjustment. Rotate it so it is more vertical and the hand should come back accross your chest. This will place the draw weight on your skeltal system rather than soft tissue. That will make you more consistent and not tire so quickly. This info can be found in Ruth Rowe's book "Fundamentals of recurve archery" She shoots recurve but it translates to longbows well. Stand up a bit and/or raise your head and I'll bet you get another inch out of your draw and attain the lower scapular tension that someone else mentioned. Longer draw is a longer stroke and more power! Good luck man. dave
Now I tought we were "suposed" to use muscle to push toward target and to draw away from target? are you saying... "not" to do that? As in just let the weight "load up" on my "form" and let the bones maintain the draw, kind of like standing up, one does not push through the feet as they stand they just use the skeleton as a frame.
Swampthing, What scriv is saying is that you do push the bow arm but with the shoulder and bow side scapula. Your arm muscles (triceps) and bow forearm should be as relaxed as possible. You are supporting the bow weight on your bones from the base of the thumb through the ulna then the humorous into the bow shoulder. It's the shoulder that should be pressing toward the target. Another plus with relaxed muscles in your arm is that it is easier to hold steady on target this way than to try to muscle your way to steadiness.
QuoteOriginally posted by moebow:
Swampthing, What scriv is saying is that you do push the bow arm but with the shoulder and bow side scapula. Your arm muscles (triceps) and bow forearm should be as relaxed as possible. You are supporting the bow weight on your bones from the base of the thumb through the ulna then the humorous into the bow shoulder. It's the shoulder that should be pressing toward the target. Another plus with relaxed muscles in your arm is that it is easier to hold steady on target this way than to try to muscle your way to steadiness.
That's what I'm saying.
QuoteOriginally posted by swampthing:
Now I tought we were "suposed" to use muscle to push toward target and to draw away from target? are you saying... "not" to do that? As in just let the weight "load up" on my "form" and let the bones maintain the draw, kind of like standing up, one does not push through the feet as they stand they just use the skeleton as a frame.
For a balanced shot, the energy expended should be equal on both sides of the spine. The bow side will have more of an isometric type of muscle contraction (not much movement). If you keep the shoulder down (it is easier to put it in position before the shot and just use deltoid muscles to raise the bow), and think of pushing toward the target with the pivot point of the grip you should be OK and using the right muscles. Yes, there will be some tension in the tricep (isometric). Once the bow is up, there should not be additioanal tension put into the bow arm deltoids. Personally, from what I can see in the pictures, I do not believe that your bow arm is a weak point for you. Elbow rotation seems to be good. The test mentioned is a good one though to make sure (elbow rotation).
I'll PM you a couple photos that you may also may find useful.
bob
QuoteOriginally posted by zetabow:
Another decent test is having the ability to have your bow and bow arm in an upright position and draw to hold for a 5 count, let up, then repeat without resting (bow still up) for a total of 5 or 6 reps. [/b][/QUOTE]
Of course if you cannot do this rep test the bow is too heavy for you, the good news is if you do this exercise several times everyday it will only be a couple of weeks before you're able to do it. :) [/QB][/QUOTE]
Yup, those can be used as excercises for strength, endurance, and power. But I would caution that a full stretching routine be used in conjuction with them. Also strength can increase fast, so be disiplined to keep the routine slow and consistant. If used improperly they can easily cause muscle strains. :(
Excellent advice above.
Only thing I can add is to use longer arrows. :)
If you put a broadhead on that one, it will mess up your draw length.
Allen
BobCo is on it. Is it more than a coincidence that we are both NAA Intermediate Instructors?
How are you shooting with the form you show in the pictures? Are you experiencing any pain areas or tightness after a long shooting session? What has been your goal up to now for your form and your shooting? Are you looking for a more fluid shot while hunting or tighter groups on a target?
Gentlemen: this has been some great advice to us "new" shooters! I have been using G.F. Asbell's books/DVD to help me learn all summer and it has been fun! I have been having good results and am shooting real well of late. To me, it's nice to have other's opinion to improve your shooting and give you a fresh new perspective. Thanks guys and good luck "Swampthing"
Kennyb
Whump Sez; Think about holding a big fat grapefruit between your shoulder blades--that's back tension. As far as cant goes---If your arrows are spined right for your bow you cannot cant the bow too much. Here is what is happening when cant changes point of impact. If you are shooting too stiff an arrow, as you roll your bow more toward the horizontal then your arrows start changing from hitting left of the mark for a right handed shooter to an arc going to a high position. The more you cant the more the arrow moves from the left and higher also. If the arrow is spined correctly the impact will not change as you roll the bow into a cant. So if your arrows are changing their impact point you need to look for a spine situation. Nobody can say if you can shoot 50lbs but you--if you are not struggling with the bow then go with it. Torque--the more you raise your elbow on your draw arm the more pressure you put on your ring finger which causes--string torque, so try your best to keep that elbow down as close to level with your shoulder as possible, this is also where back tension comes into play. If you try to draw the bow with just your arm you will have a high elbow.That's about it--now quit making love to that long bow and shoot it. Hunt safe.
Fluid hunting style is the goal.
Impossible to keep draw hand, elbow and shoulders inline, impossible. In order to have the draw hand and elbow inline, these parts will be above shoulder level, has to, my anchor is NOT my neck and shoulder region its the side of my face. So if I stand up, keep my head up, and draw to anchor, draw hand+elbow will be above shoulders, not pointed above, but, above the shoulder line and horror'zontal. Does this lessen draw hand/arm tension, is it safe for shoulders and elbow?
It's all give and take. What you described may not be the ideal position biomechanically as far as positoning for back tension goes. But it does put the arrow in better alignement if you choose to use a gap or secondary vision technique of aiming. It also gives you a bit more clearance for hunting clothes.
Using the large back muscles to their best ability should reduce wear and tear on other joints/muscles.
Just can't find a happy place. Elbows all unhappy, ring fingers ticked off, draw wrist and forearm are in knots, man, this used to be fun, now it's just more work. Again 50#@28" shooting for 4-5years. Maybe I need 40#'s
Keeping it fun should be a priority. If you are going hunting this fall, I'd suggest going to what has been working for you.
There is a lot of time for experimentation after that. You may even want to get the form burnt in over the course of a few mnonths with therabands, then move to a light weight bow, then go back to your hunting bow. The problem is not only learning something new, but unlearning something from the past. :)
Something to consider anyway.
Bob
QuoteOriginally posted by swampthing:
Just can't find a happy place. Elbows all unhappy, ring fingers ticked off, draw wrist and forearm are in knots, man, this used to be fun, now it's just more work. Again 50#@28" shooting for 4-5years. Maybe I need 40#'s
I dig what you are saying right there. The last part. Yep, the fourties. My bows are in the upper thirties, but of course my draw is so long that they make the mid 40's before I am done. I recently drew a 50# long bow and shot, just like "butta". That thing had to be nearly 60# at my draw- no problem. Point is practice and groove your shot on a lighter bow that allows you to get where you need to be. Then when you need to draw a heavier bow your shot will be there. You may find out that you don't need a heavier bow. Back in my youth I shot a 70# longbow. As most younger gents I shot way too much bow. I'd like to think I've benefitted from my years and shoot the lighter bow. Due to my length and form, many can't believe how light my bow is when they see my arrow fly. Good luck man. Dave
Get the video "Hittin' "em Like Howard Hill" believe it follow it, then just shoot. I have seen it before that when someone starts over analyzing what they do the natural feel goes away and all kinds of tensions show up. If you want to shoot fluid, you have to follow a shooting system of one who has perfected fluid. There is really no need to reinvent that wheel, just copy Hill.
I don't know that his left shoulder is high.It could just be muscle.Mine is the same way.I can't lower it anymore and I know I'm not overbowed.
Good advice above.I would ask how good is your shooting?
Boy I wish things were as easy as just shooting like Howard. Don't get me wrong, Howard was amazing. He is a "hero" of mine and we have pictures of him all over my cabin. I have read everything that he has written more then once. - John Schulz also.
But I think that many would agree that beyond Howard's talent with a bow, he had incredible strength and endurance (as much or even more then the Olympic Archers of today IMO), which is very overlooked IMO. He had absolute complete control of himself and of his bow which was often very high in pulling weight. If you watch his video's it almost looks like he is pulling a rubber band back, it is so effortless.
So what I am saying is that if you really want to copy Howard, then strength should not be overlooked. I sure wish I could copy him (or John)in his entirety. ;)
I worked at the strength until I could shoot a 90 pound bow all day. I used a thick leather pad and worked out with two heavy bows. I can still draw two 64 pound bows together a couple of dozen times, I agree strength is critical to control. However, the young man in the photo is strong and his bow is a 50 pounder. I think he has the stuff to shoot Hill style. There is not all that much different from Terry's form clock to the Hill form. Perhaps a bit more bend in the left arm. The way Howard Hill drew a bow also had a lot to do with using the proper muscles. When that form is used the proper muscles come into play automatically, while keeping the body frame in a more natural none exaggerated state of flexibility. Much more of an ergo-dynamic state, which results in a better use of strength and less chance of injury. On top of all that it kills game. When Byron Ferguson studied Hill it turned everything around for him as it did for me and many others. The one thing I must point out, judging someone by what is in two still photos, may be a little incomplete. The young man in action may have a different form or there may be other aspects that in a dynamic state that do not show up in the full draw pose. There is also the mental application of the fluid shooting style, the focus, the economy of motion, the human predator in action. I think he has the right stuff to succeed.
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
I worked at the strength until I could shoot a 90 pound bow all day.
Hope I didn't stike a nerve with you. Didn't mean to if I did. Just meant to state the importance of strength and endurance and the amount that Howard had. Personally, if I could pull a 90 pound bow all day, I'd be extremely happy. :) Congrats to you. Personally, I can do about 2 hours and about 120 arrows with my 54# bow before my form starts to fade, then I'm done. Practicing to fatigue is good, but practicing while fatigued is not IMO. I agree with you that timing and flow are extremely important, especially if indivual aspects have been mastered. I completely agree that Howard was a master.
Part of the problem seems to be anchor, if I just pull straight till to anchor the draw shoulder will angle foward as I pull back.
NOW if I think about a "slight" rotation, almost as though you pull around your nose then allow the rotation to end/land at my anchor, as I draw the bow back the shoulder does not feel as though it is being angled foward. This is a very subtle difference but is showing improvement in reducing stress. I also notice when I bend that elbow and kinda' let the bow weight push into my bow shoulder the arrow flight is much better than when I push the bow toward the target, which tells me I'm torquing the bow when I push it toward the target, more than likely from fore-arm tension as my grip on the bow is not tight.
So..
instead of pushing to the target and cranking my neck... bend the elbow to allow the bow rise up into my vision, as apposed to cranking down to see it.
2. swing draw 2/3's and than rotate the draw shoulder slightly around its axis to alliviate tension in that entire arm.
Sound safe?
Never try to copy someone elses form.Bad idea.
Sounds like you are getting there. The cranking of the neck thing. Just this evening i had a go around with my wife, about the same thing. she was jamming her neck going for a long draw and a tight hold and anchor with her recurve. she has been complaining about a stiff cord in her neck. We worked it out much as you described, and she found that the cramping in her neck was not giving as much pain as before. I have had bows that I could squeeze hard and not effect the flight of the arrow,, straight gripped Schulz, and others that worked better with just enough pressure to keep the bow in my hand on release. If you let the bow push too much back on you to the point of collapsing your shoulder that could also be less than ideal. Everyone has there own best exact spot for their anchor, where ever it naturally lands and still allows inline and clear vision works for most.
As far as the comment above, good form is just that, adapting that which works for others that are better than us. We are all the same species, what works for one will generally be similar for another. There is a difference from static target shooting mentality to the fluid hunting mentality, the approach is quite different. Saying that, I will admit to having enjoyed FITA shooting and shooting indoor PAA rounds. That 20 yard 290+ per round average did not help me at all for hunting.
This is one thread that I enjoyed reading, and after this hunting season I have a few things to work on. The strength conditioning and stretching is a plus.