I am thinking about changing my corner of the mouth anchor point to one slightly farther back to get proper alignment. Just curious about the different anchor point you all are using.
I do exactly what you are considering. I anchor slightly further back from the corner of my mouth. It works for me.
I had to do that too.
I moved it all the way back to where my upper and lower jaw meet in the corner about an inch from my ear lobe. My shooting improved heaps.
My elbow was lower, and my shoulders and back were much better alligned.
I put the back knuckle of my thumb under my ear lobe and the cock feather on my upper lip.
Just a heads up, with a longer draw you may have to retune, your arrows may end up week depending on how much longer your draw ends up being
I'm gonna miss that easy to find corner of my mouth.
I draw until my thumb rests just under my jaw bone, this puts my index finger right behind the corner of my mouth.
I anchor the first knuckle of my thumb in the notch between my cheek bone and jaw. This point is further back and it doesn't change depending on my mood the way the corner of the mouth dose. Also for me my thumb really locks into place so repeatable form is unmistakable.
Bear Heart- Good thinking. We are all built differently but I think the corner of the mouth anchor causes many of us to short draw. The forearm does not get into line with the arrow and the target line like it should. This means the draw forces are not in the target line and left-right arrows occur. Further, the neck, head and therefore the corner of the mouth can move in any direction but especially fore and aft, forth and back. This affects draw length.
So further back is better, but still variable. I try to feel my anchor not so much on my face but in my shoulder, back and elbow. If they are lined up where they should be it doesn't matter much what the corner of my mouth is doing. - lbg
I just check my form in the mirror. I stood with my shoulders and bow arm facing the mirror. Kept my head in place and drew back until my elbow just disappeared. This gave me an anchor about 3/4" back from the corner of my mouth. My back tension felt better than ever. Can't shoot any arrows until tomorrow so I will have to wait and see.
I just changed from corner of mouth to 2. thumb joint on bone below ear.
as it turned out that gave me MUCH better alignment (while still keeping head in a reasonable position) At first my shooting got alot worse, and will probably have to scrap all my arrows since i now draw 30.5". Might have to get a new bow too since the 48#@28" recurve is too much for me at 30.5", It is VERY fast though :)
I then tried a lighter bow and longer arrows. My shooting is still way too variable but some sessions and most shots i now shoot better than i ever thought possible.
My bottom line is one need to find where the body needs to be to have optimum alignment, and play from there.
K
went from corner of mouth to tip of index finger touching cheek bone.
bone on bone
A good, repeatable, consistent anchor must be a bone on bone contact. Everything else are 'touch' points for confirmation only because they can change. The best is the web of the hand fitting snugly along/around the jawline with one of the fingers touching a specific tooth.
Remember that the higher the anchor, the harder it is to engage the back muscles.
Also, keep the mouth closed, with the teeth resting together (not clenched). Try a shot with mouth open and then closed to see the difference it makes!
I also noticed that I wasn't getting my elbow all the way back when I anchored in the corner of my mouth.
In trying to correct this problem, I noticed a couple of other things:
If all you do is pull the arrow further back, you're not really solving the problem, and your elbow tends to stick out even when the arrow is hauled back quite a ways. You need to engage your back muscles, which will pull your elbow around into allignment with the arrow. It feels more like a rotary motion of my elbow than a straight back motion, and doesn't require as much of a change to get your elbow into allignment.
In Precision Archery by Ruis and Stevenson, they recommend using back tension as your anchor, rather than some point on your face. It doesn't mean that you abandon touching a particular point on your face, since that's still your rear sight. But it means that you focus on reaching a certain state of back tension each time you shoot, and don't release until you achieve that level of back tension. They point out that when you get tired, your head may droop forward, or your shoulders may slump, and if your only reference is a point on your face, you will start missing shots and not know why.
Terry Green, in the Tradgang DVD, recommends dragging the knuckle of your thumb across your face as you come to full draw. This assures that you have the same allignment of your bow with your face each time you shoot.
Making the three changes above has improved my shooting, although being aware of reaching a certain degree of back tension is subtle, as it's not something we have focused on most of our lives. But if you look in the mirror, and focus on the feeling in your back when your elbow comes into allignment, you will find that you can recognize the feeling when you're shooting. It only required me to move my point of contact back from the corner of my mouth to a point directly back of that on my jawbone, about 1" I would guess. A side benefit is that I pick up an inch in draw length, which brings me pretty close to a 28" draw length.
Yes...I use a double anchor...I drag my thumb base knuckle along side my cheek...I keep dragging even though my middle finger is in the corner, and the arrow don't go till the thumb base knuckle slides behind my jaw under my hear.
You can see my face being distorted as I drag....
Close up Clip (http://tradgang.com/videos/m28.asf)
I found a really easy way to engage the back muscles every time. For those that can't feel it, try this.
As you draw, pretend that there is a 'bump' right in front of the riser that you have to go up and over, and then you are going to rest your forearm on the bump, bring the shoulders down.
I was also taught to always try to 'cut the face' with the thumb or index finger on release.
Terry, upon watching the video I noticed that you tilt your head slightly. Can you elaborated on the correct use of this.
My head is tilted to the same angle as the cant of my bow.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
My head is tilted to the same angle as the cant of my bow.
Ditto except when hunting duck from a canoe, then I hold the bow dang near flat, that might hurt if I tried to match the cant angle.
When I lock my thumb under my jawbone I get a good solid anchor, but if I look into a mirror I see my hand is twisting the string. How do you keep from putting an 'S' in the string with this anchor?
Greg - if you let the bow float in your bow hand, it should come to some natural angle such that there is no torque in the bowstring. In other words, let the angle your fingers are gripping the string determine how much the bow is canted. Unless I'm misunderstanding your question.
I will need to find a new anchor I think. Mine comes from the wheelie bow days when I used a pivoting release. To cant the bow, I would have to cant the bow reverse. I guess I described it wrong. I anchor with the web between my thumb and index finger behind my jawbone. Its a very solid anchor but won't work for shooting fingers. I just need some daylight to practice and shoot.
Greg,
I think I know what you are talking about. Your hand angles away from your face?
If so, tuck your thumb under the jaw, lower your elbow down and back, while squeezing more with the draw arm back muscles. With the right back muscle tension, the elbow will come around on its own and the hand will follow to line up flatter.
McDave is right.
Another way to use what he says is to hold your head out of the way as you find the best position in your back, shoulder, and elbow. When you have it, just lay your face over against your hand as if it was your favorite shotgun. Snuggle it in until you find some reference points to remember. - lbg
top of the mornin to you guys,I havent posted for a while but this thread is really helpful since it seems i am always fiddling around with this.I tried G Freds stance and it has seemed to get my bow arm and drawing shouldr in line by moving my anchor point back to my lower bottom molar H H type anchor,again greetings.
I use several anchors...forefinger on upper tooth, vee formed by thumb and forefinger behind the jaw, gap at target, and contraction of back muscles.
IMO Anchor brings to mind a stopping place and should be regarded as only a slowing down place, before expanding to release.
Success! I have changed my anchor from the tip of my middle finger in the corner of my mouth to the first joint of that same finger touching the corner of my mouth. Much better alignment. Bonus is that now I can use my former anchor as a reference to start the slow squeeze into my new anchor. Thanks to Terry Green for his emphasis on proper alignment. I know recommend to everyone to go in front of the mirror, NO ARROW, and draw their bow back until they have proper alignment. Then make note of you anchor at the time. It can make all the difference.
Your shortening you draw and getting better alignment??
No lengthening. I was touching the very tip of my finger to the corner. Now I am sliding it back until the knuckle touches.
Bear Heart: Congrats on finding the perfect anchor for you!!! I cannot get out much in the winter (we have 8" of snow that fell yesterday and now have cooolllldddd temps) so I had to learn and practice using the mirror all last winter. What a wonderful tool!!!
QuoteOriginally posted by SHOOTO8S:
IMO Anchor brings to mind a stopping place and should be regarded as only a slowing down place, before expanding to release.
Yeah Boy!!!....
The anchor point should be an evolution to execution!!!
Anchor and release are two archery terms that should have been given much more thought as to all the confusion they were gonna be causing :D
Its interesting that I've never heard a well credentialed coach use the term release.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
QuoteOriginally posted by SHOOTO8S:
IMO Anchor brings to mind a stopping place and should be regarded as only a slowing down place, before expanding to release.
Yeah Boy!!!....
The anchor point should be an evolution to execution!!! [/b]
Never thought of that. Great insight.
QuoteOriginally posted by SHOOTO8S:
Anchor and release are two archery terms that should have been given much more thought as to all the confusion they were gonna be causing :D
Its interesting that I've never heard a well credentialed coach use the term release.
Interesting, what terms do they use?
Most never mention the act of letting go of the string...simply because having a name and making it a part of the shot..makes letting go, a conscious act, when most agree it should be totaly subconsious...so generally they teach...anchor, increased pulling(expansion) and conclusion...letting the letgo(release) happen subconsciouly between the expansion and conclusion....and I agree ....if you think about letting go, soon most anticipate and screw up thr shot....its nearly impossible for most to not anticipate, so why not anticipate going to the conclusion and not ruining the shot?
I use three reference points. I use the second knuckle of my thumb touching my ear lobe. The cock feather touches my nose and the bow string touches my eyebrow. This has worked well for me, but I really like the smooth draw and release that Terry Green has. I've seen his videos and I've tried to mimic it. So far I keep going back to what works.
Thanks Rod.
Ever consider writing a book? I'd buy it.
Good stuff Rod :thumbsup:
Pope....yep, you can experiment, and in the end, you will find what works best for you.
I too tried lots of different things early on, and got tips from many....the one's that fit me lead me to my own personal shooting style.
What didn't fit me, I left on the table. All we can do here is try and suggest what works for us, and even at times what works for others, but in the end you gotta find your style that fits you best.
I'll still be hollering about proper alignment though as I think it is the foundation of a consistent repeatable shot.
I shoot three fingers under, bringing my middle finger to the corner of my mouth and the tip of my extended thumb to the back of my ear. I used to pluck the string but since I have extended my thumb it brings the string closer to my face and when the thumb touches the ear it tells me I am at full draw and the release kinda just happens. No more plucking and much smaller groups.
The best way I heard it put is;
"You don't let go of the arrow...you let the arrow go" and...
"The release should be a surprise. If not, then you thought about it and interrupted the true intention...to maintain concentration on the center of center. If the arrow did happen to hit where you originally intended, then you just got lucky."
I "ignored" this thread for awhile thinking that since I have "longish" arms and relatively narrow (from humerus to humerus) shoulders I had no need of a lengthening.
Today I tried bringing my index finger to the prominent point of my cheek bone instead of my middle finger to the corner mouth. (Probably about an extra 1") Coming all the way back to ear and what-not felt way way wrong.
Shooting improved, but I'm worried about the consistency of the anchor. Going to keep playing around but if anyone else is "ignoring" this thread cause they don't thing there body structures it, give it a try.
Another great thread!! Great advice!! Thanks Joe
That video clip or Terry should be a sticky!
I can't remember if it was Rod or Denny who said it in MBB III (I'm getting old, and I've only watched it 4 times so far), but one of them said that anchor isn't a stopping place but a starting place. That really clicked for me. My cousin had been telling me to pull through the shot, which helped, but changing my thinking to anchor being the place where I start to add back tension until the arrow releases. It's kind of like the bow going off instead of me releasing, much like squeezing the trigger of a gun.
When I'm working on my form, I think anchor - touch my shoulder. I don't give release a thought; it just happens. Blind bale work helps that too. Then, like Rod, when I'm shooting, I just focus on aiming. When I do that, the arrows usually fly true. When I miss the mark, I can usually tell which part of my form I missed. When I am hitting the mark, I really don't recall any part of the shot except aiming
Yup, I aim. It's kind of a modified gap, minus the math (sorry Rod, I was an English major for a reason). I think it is similar to what Byron Ferguson talks about in his book. I'm not ready to shoot aspirin (even stationary ones) just yet, but my results have certainly improved by following the advice of Rod Jenkins and Denny Sturgis on MBB III. Everyone, regardless of their skill level, owes it to themselves to watch Masters of the Bare Bow III. It is almost an iron clad guarantee of improved shooting.
I forgot to add, there is one bad point to watching MBB III: by adopting Rod's shooting methods, I now have to put a darn bandaid on the side of my nose! :banghead:
Hey...if that's what it takes to be accurate...its a small price. :biglaugh:
I anchor just around my earlobe. It feels comfortable :)
Interesting thread and viewpoints. I actually find most of them pretty surprising.
A long LONG time trad shooter and friend and I were discussing this just yesterday. (I dont enter the shooter's forum much..its embarrassing LOL)
Both of us "taught" ourselves in the 60s and when you've shot a certain way for decades, its ONE VERY HARD THING to do, when attempting to change.
It's interesting to me that so many are going for a LONGER draw.
With my fat face, "longer" also means further to the right (right handed shooter) and if I dont cant my head quite a bit, my eye is not over the shaft and Ill consistantly shoot left.
With a index finger in the corner of my mouth and thumb under my jaw, my jawbone sits directly in the "V" formed by my thumb and index finger.
"Aiming" at a mirror shows my elbow staight back and only a slight head tilt puts my eye over the arrow dead center.
Besides, anything longer rips the bejesus out of my beard, yanking hair out, and my rotator/shoulder joint is screaming bloody murder.
While longer draws give a person more zip, I find them very uncomfortable and inaccurate.
I know it's from decades of doing so and my self conscious is as bullheaded as I am but if my left eye is facing my intended target, dead center, I can reach full draw without any head movement, time after time.
MY and also my buddies big problem is it is so very hard to stop the "timing" of the shot.
Looking at the "dot" I want to hit before I start to draw, the arrow is habitually GONE when anchor is hit and consistancy is mediocre.
When I CAN hold just a second or two, Ill bust arrow nocks but consistancy is not yet here.
For decades as well, we never worried about it. We just grabbed arrows and went shooting. The more we shot the better our groups got BUT we still let er rip when anchor was hit and have killed dozens and dozens of deer doing so.
Ive a book coming to read up on the "mental" blocks of shooting and will be working on this but...dang, OLD WAYS DIE HARD. LOL
Excellent thread! Hope I didn't mess anyone up.
God Bless
This has to be the best site ever for learning. You guys hit on topics I haven't even thought about in 50 yrs of shooting...PR
Currently, and from here on, I use Ruis and Stevenson's method of back tension (see "Precision Archery"). Target archers and coaches consider the face anchor too inconsistent... and it is IMHO. I found this out myself recently when a friend noticed that my head came back when I anchored... not good. The result, sporadically elevated shots! So, I adopted a method where I find a level of tension in my back and position of my scapulas for my anchor. This method takes practice but it works!!
For those interested, here's how I learned this method. First, I got RIGHT in front of my target, closed my eyes, drew my bow with an arrow cut to my DL. Then I opened my eyes to check it. I did this until I had a good sense of what my anchor feels like. Then I began releasing the arrow, using the cut DL arrows. Those grouped well, so I moved to longer hunting arrows. Once I found consistency there, I then began noticing where my hand ends up on my face. I use it as a subconscious check. Having learned this method, I am now getting nice tight groups at 20 yds... better than I ever have!