Hi all, I started bareshafting last night and found that my bareshafts would hit the centre area of the target I was aiming at from about 13 metres but the nock end would be facing drastically to the right (I'm left handed).
So the point would be in the target where I wanted it but the other end of the arrow would be far off the the right. So much so that one of the shafts snapped when it impacted the target.
Any ideas? Should I just go back further?
Nock right means that the shaft is too weak for a left-handed shooter. This means you can either:
1. Shorten the shaft, but not too much at a time! 1/2" shorter makes a surprising amount of difference in arrow spine.
2. Use a lighter arrow point.
3. Use a stiffer arrow shaft.
4. Add weight to the rear of the arrow shaft, if you're using the kind of shaft that allows you to do that.
Your 13 meter distance is apparently plenty far back, since you saw exactly what you needed to see in order to tune your arrows to your bow.
Yep thanks Dave, so I'm assuming then that the further I move back the more off-target the point would be, I was just too close to see it wander a real lot? Yup I can cut em down coz they're pretty long already.
After they seem to be flying pretty straight at 13 meters, you can move back. A well tuned bare shaft should stay straight and group with your fletched arrows out to 30 yards or so. Assuming, of course, that you have good form and a good release. I like to shoot a bare shaft along with my fletched arrows occasionaly during my regular practice sessions just to keep myself honest about my form and release.
How are they grouping with your bare shafts?
Unless your form and release is near perfect every shot, trying to get perfect flight is extremly difficult for most.
Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by SteveB:
How are they grouping with your bare shafts?
Unless your form and release is near perfect every shot, trying to get perfect flight is extremly difficult for most.
Steve
If you mean how are my fletched arrows grouping with the bares? They're good at that range but the nock is extremely right. Tips are on the money at 13 metres. I'll move back tonight and see what I come up with.
Some say that nock left/right issues don't matter as long as the bare shafts are landing with the fletched shafts but IMHO, bare shafts going into target at say 45 degrees nock left or right is still telling me something is WRONG.
A bare shaft going in at that much of an extreme angle is going to make fletching work overtime to straighten out the shaft's flight.
Yes that's what I think too. And for there to be enough sideways force on the shaft for it to snap clean in two when it penetrated the target is definitely a cause for concern.
You may want to shoot those bare shafts at 20-25 meters just to make sure you have a handle on their flight. Going in hard nock right, while still hitting the center doesn't add up. There may be something else happening. Would hate to see you cut your arrows to stiffen only to find out they were actually weak. You really should see them grouping left or right of center because that is what the effect of nock left and right are, moving the arrow in another direction. I've shot at 20 before and had bare shafts miss the target left or right. No doubt about it then. Just make sure you nail down the pattern before making changes.
Tom, it sounds like you need to trim them some, to me. To get a better handle on it, you should try more than one shaft, and shoot them enough that you are confident that they shoot nock right when your form and release are good. 15 m is far enough, IMO. Getting consistent results from your bare shafts is more important than the distance. When you're satisfied that the shafts shoot consistently nock right, start trimming!
I use very soft furniture foam for bare-shaft tuning, to prevent breakage of the shafts when the spine is off.
Quotebare shafts going into target at say 45 degrees nock left or right is still telling me something is WRONG.
Could very well mean the nocks do not fit properly, the release needs a lot work, string is hanging a bit on the glove,tab etc.
If they are hitting with the fletched, then you are very close and the feathers are not working nearly as hard as when the tune is still off for whatever reason.
Steve
Here is 2 cents from a total novice. Dennis hahn (wonderful dude) sold me some shafts a year ago and I never had the nerve to finish them out until the carbons i bought that were heavy enough for my selfbow were just too stiff.
I started with two of the dozen and nocked and tipped them with 125 gr glue-on field tips. I made one shaft 1/2" shorter than the other. Then I cut 1" off the long one (alternating) until the short one flew just a tad weak. I'm right-handed so when the nock was consistently a degree or two to the left I figured I was close. This was all at 12-13 yds. I have a short basement and a cranky neighbor so outdoor practice is out of the question.
Tonight i will set up two more shafts at the length of my best bare-shaft for a total of four. These go to the range tomorrow and i will see if they work out to 20 yds (maybe 30 if I feel especially froggy). After that i will fletch a couple and see how they fly. The final step will be to put on a BH and see if I am close.
Deer season started 9/22 here in KS but it is still too warm for me. Heck anything over 40 degrees is too warm for me...
all that baloney to say - shorten those suckers and try some more! It is all an adventure.
Did I say Dennis Hahn was a gem? I mean it.
Va, That's wonderful IF they are too weak to start with. Overly stiff as many start out with will show you a weak indication cause the tail end hits the riser. All that cutting will make matters worse. If you're going to shoot BH's, start with them from the get go. Never ever cut until you've verified with point weight. In other words if you want to shoot 125's and they shoot great with 100's and weak with 125's, then you cut, to do otherwise is asking for trouble....O.L.
Thanks everybody for the replies.
I made up 3 bareshafts, all with 190gr field tips because this is the weight of the broadheads I plan on using.
went back to 23 metres and hey presto, 2 of the 3 shafts missed the target completely to the left.
I then cut one all the way down to 28.5 inches and it still indicates weak. I replaced the tip with a 160gr field tip (I have a dozen 155gr Tusker Concordes I can use too) but I'm not game to shoot it in my garage now because of the other ones missing the target. one embedded into the roller door!
This doesn't add up to me. The shafts are spined pretty stiffly and no amount of cutting seems to be improving. Almost 3 inches of material.
I'll report back next week once I shoot my bare shafts with the lighter tips. Thanks.
QuoteOriginally posted by SteveB:
Quotebare shafts going into target at say 45 degrees nock left or right is still telling me something is WRONG.
Could very well mean the nocks do not fit properly, the release needs a lot work, string is hanging a bit on the glove,tab etc.
If they are hitting with the fletched, then you are very close and the feathers are not working nearly as hard as when the tune is still off for whatever reason.
Steve [/b]
Thanks Steve, it didn't occur to me that it could be a major fault in the form. I'll observe it and address if necessary.
Tom, Are you right handed? If you are and missing to the left, that's a stiff indication, not weak....O.L.
No O.L I'm left handed.
Could it have something to do with the bow? The rest? The side plate? The string? Limbs?
Though thinking about what Steve said, I'm starting to get the funny feeling my bowhand is letting me down for some reason.
Or, it could be that you simply haven't used a stiff enough shaft yet. For example, my Black Widow recurve needs an arrow shaft with a measured spine that is considerably stiffer than the bow weight. OTOH, I have found that wooden arrows for my longbow require a measured spine that is considerably weaker than the bow weight. So there is a wide range of possibilities, and you may just not be there yet.
You could be right.
It just seems pretty major to me.
The bow is 55lb recurve and the shafts are of a spine 80-85#. Is your situation that big of a leap?
Given what you've just told me, I don't think a stiffer shaft is the answer. I can't imagine that a 55# bow would require an 80-85# shaft. As others have said, you might get strange results if the shaft is way off for the bow. Why don't you try a 60# shaft, and see what results you get?
Or go up in point weight, way up! You don't know what you've got until you make them shoot weak. If you could use a thinner side plate, that would help. But a 55# bow set up to shoot 60# spine will be more forgiving then the same bow set up to shoot 70+..O.L.
QuoteOriginally posted by O.L. Adcock:
Or go up in point weight, way up! You don't know what you've got until you make them shoot weak. If you could use a thinner side plate, that would help. But a 55# bow set up to shoot 60# spine will be more forgiving then the same bow set up to shoot 70+..O.L.
But they are shooting weak. So wouldn't a thicker side plate be the answer. Remember, lefty here.
McDave, it's not at all unusual for a modern recurve bow to require wood shafts that are much higher in spine than the draw weight of the bow. The wood arrow scale is based on self bows, and a modern fiberglass-backed recurve puts out much more energy than a self bow of the same weight, and requires a much stronger arrow. My 60# hot recurve bare-shafts perfectly with 90# shafts.
Tom, "But they are shooting weak. So wouldn't a thicker side plate be the answer. Remember, lefty here."
The indication is weak but like McDave said I suspect you are WAY over spined. That will show it's ugly head as being weak and efforts to corrct it, like cutting shafts will be to no avail. If you go down in point weight and things don't change, that's exactly what's happening. 90% of peoples tuning problems are from being overspined, seldom are they under....O.L.
In my opinion (and it ain't worth a whole lot) the amount of centershot a particular bow has is the primary reason it would require a stiffer/weaker shaft. You could build two bows with everything identical except the amount of centershot, whichever bow is cut closer to center is either gonna need a stiffer shaft or heaver point weight to get good flight.
Also the "rules" of bareshafting that deal with nock high, low, left, right works great until you get way out of whack, meaning that a shaft you though was too weak is really too stiff or you get nock high flight, but the nocking point was really too low. The old Easton Arrow Tuning handout summed it up that if what you tried didn't work, do the opposite. I NEVER cut off a bareshaft until I have verified it through changing point weight. Of course, the arrows I shoot have screw in points, though.
David
O.L. and company - thanks for all the info.
I shot bare and flethed out to 20-22 yds last night and ended up with a very tight (for me) group with bare and fletched all together.
Dennis - you make some real nice shafts.
Next I try some BHs
Well thanks everyone. OL, I'll let you know this afternoon how I go with more bareshafting with lighter points.
OK.
I have 155gr Tusker broadheads shooting very straight on 29 1/2 inch shafts.
What gives? They're neither high nor low, but tending ever so slightly to the right. I might lengthen a little.
what gives here? Should I go out with these shafts knowing they shoot straight but that I couldn't get them to shoot straight without fletching?
Tom, What are you comparing them to? Fletched matched weight field tips? You keep using the term "straight". What are you talking about? Shaft angle? If so confusion is to be expected! :) ....O.L.
"Should I go out with these shafts knowing they shoot straight but that I couldn't get them to shoot straight without fletching ?"
Tom, are you bareshaft testing broadheads?
QuoteOriginally posted by O.L. Adcock:
Tom, What are you comparing them to? Fletched matched weight field tips? You keep using the term "straight". What are you talking about? Shaft angle? If so confusion is to be expected! :) ....O.L.
Shaft angle is what I'm talking about.
Yes, matched to similar weighted field tips of the same length shafts. out to 22 metres last night and they're hitting the little black spot and the shaft angle is straight.
QuoteOriginally posted by Old York:
"Should I go out with these shafts knowing they shoot straight but that I couldn't get them to shoot straight without fletching ?"
Tom, are you bareshaft testing broadheads?
Nup. I meant, should I go into the forest knowing that these shafts were indicating either extreme high or low spine when unfletched, but are showing good spine when fletched with broadheads? I still don't really understand.
Lets back up....Looking at the angle the shafts flys through the air or sticks in a target is a poor method to determine tuning quality. The reason is 400 things besides tuning issues can cause it and attempting to "fix" it usually winds up with over spined shafts. shooting through paper is the same thing.
The "other" bare shaft method is called the planeing method has you shoot 2 or 3 bareshaft with 2 or 3 fletched shafts. Fletched shafts will always go close to where they are pointed whether tuned well or not while bare shafts or wide broadheads if poorly tuned will plane off somewhere eles. Where they group in relation to the fletched shafts tells you exactly whats wrong. It is completely independant of your "form" or other quirks giving you a reliable reading. Here is a link www.bowmaker.net/tuning.htm (http://www.bowmaker.net/tuning.htm)
Bottom line is shaft angle will lie to you and make you attempt to correct things that may or may not be broken. The best shooters can not consistantly shoot an arrow "straight". It's a recipe for frustration....O.L.
OL, thanks I've looked at your tuning guide and its handy.
I'll go back with a fresh mind tonight and see what I can do.
Tom, It's not "mine", it's been around for 30+ years, it just got bastardized with the kick method some where along the line. Some feel they get good results from the "kick" method but as many threads as we see concerning it is a good indication of how poorly it works. Big thing is pick a method and don't mix the two cause one will contradict the other...O.L.
So you're saying that when I originally said that they were grouping with my fletched arrows but the nocks were right I was fine then? I tended to think I was fine too but got paranoid.
My broadheads are flying so well it's hard to think that I'm hugely uder or over spined.
O.L.,
So now you've sorted out that the grouping of the shafts is the important issue and Tom has some properly spined shafts going forward. I wonder why his shafts were planing left consistently? I've often wondered if the distance of side plate is built out from centershot could cause a bow to flip shafts excessively left or right. Is this something good for Tom to tackle next? Also, Could the diameter of the shaft in relation to centershot cause problems? (whether shooting skinny carbons or fat shafts)
Fleetus, "I've often wondered if the distance of side plate is built out from centershot could cause a bow to flip shafts excessively left or right."
Changing the amount of centershot changes what spine will tune well. "Out" will like a lower spine and "In" more spine. Different spines, different shaft diameters, different lengths, different point weights, different centershot amounts all do the same thing.....O.L.