I'm curious as to when "traditional" archery became "barebow" archery. Seems like most all "trad" shoots are really barebow shoots. Are there any shoots any more that have a classification for recurves/longbows with sights?It would be nice if some of the events like ATAR or ETAR would have a classification for bows with sights.
To me, traditional does not equal barebow.
I know, I know, I'm beating a deadhorse.
deadhorse ain't gonna enjoy that.
I never thought about it, but you've got a point. I guess the question would then be, are there enough shooters who use sights to make it worthwhile to generate another class in the competition? Of course, if there is no competition at the shoot (as is the case at Baltimore), or if you wish to limit your sights to fun courses, or perhaps do a comp course with no scorecard, then you are not currently limited in your enjoyment of a shoot.
Perhaps posing your question here will generate a response or two from shoot coordinators, and from fellow "sighted" archers to get a feel for the support or concerns surrounding your desires.
Hope to see you again next year,
Killdeer :campfire:
I agree. Yes, there have been some that I have gone too that have a classification for sights. ETAR has no classes. It is non competitive. It is just one big trad love fest.Jawge
Tom, the IBO rules allow sights, etc. on longbows and recurves in some classes. The rules are somewhat complex... see ibo.org.
I shoot my Black Widow with a sight. Tom, I agree with you 100%.
What word means something to one person may not mean the same to another.Traditional archery is the minority in big shoots.The big shoots are driven by big money and the big manufacturers.Even a traditional bow with sights shooting off the shelf,would it be fair to shoot against guys with metal riser,elevated rests,foam core limbs and sights.Most of the shoots that are non competive,are that way because when ever there prizes or even just a trophy there will be cheating envolved unless there are rules set.Around here at most local shoots there is maybe 5-10 trad shooters compared to 100 plus compound shooters.To me barebow means a longbow only,shot off a shelf with no sights and shot split finger.Does it mean the same to another?
QuoteOriginally posted by Killdeer:
I guess the question would then be, are there enough shooters who use sights to make it worthwhile to generate another class in the competition?
You might be surprised how many people would choose to use a sight if the class existed for it.
Many people are just not willing to push and issue, they just find it easier to go with the flow.
:campfire:
Lenny
I believe that bare bow traditional archery began about 10,000 to 12,000 years ago. It can still be traditional today with sights. That is a personal preference. I don't believe anyone will argue that. Most of us traditional shooters enjoy the challenge of shooting without sights. Sights are not necessary to be able to shoot well. Concentration and consistency are necessary!
I don't feel an unfair advantage when shooting with folks with any equipment that they want to shoot with. I don't compete with them, I compete with myself...for a good clean kill shot. I always buy a score card to support the shoot but very rarely do I keep score. I score myself and my arrow flight and eventual placement in the kill zone. I use the situation to practice for the real thing. Pat
It takes awhile for history to repeat itself. Here in the Northeast part of the country, sights were on probably 7 out of every 10 bows in the 60's and 70's, and yes...I mean recurve bows. I don't know any longbow shooters that ever used sights though, but there weren't many of them around back the either. I was an oddball who didn't use sights on my recurve.
we have those classes around here. Well at least for recurve we do . It's either aided or unaided. Releases and sights fall under aided.
No such class for longbow and in a sanctioned shoot longbow is to shoot wood arrows or they fall into a "guest traditional class"
Primitive bows have NO attachments and must shoot wood arrows as well.
Pat, in no way am I implying that those who shoot recurves with sights should shoot competitively against those without sights. That would be equivalent to me shooting my FITA recurve against the compound guys...which is what happens at most of the local shoots I've attended.
What I would like to see is a class at places like ATAR, or wherever there's trophies or prizes being awarded, for folks shooting recurves or longbows with sights. I mean, they have classes called longbow, recurve, primitive, ladies longbow, ladies recurve....all under the main classification as "traditional" (which really should be called "barebow")...why can't another class for "traditional w/ sights" or "traditional aided" be created at these shoots also?
Whats so bad about shooting a long bow with sights against a recurve with sights?
All of the shoots around here won't even let you shoot if you have sights on a bow. I am not saying I agree with that. That is just how it is.
Personally I don't see the issue if a person wants to use a traditional "wood" recurve with a sight against someone with an ILF riser, elevated rest, and sight. To me they are both the same monster, one just looks different.
I've routinely shot my "hunter" class compound against guys with the 3' stabs and Vbars, scopes, and lincoln log arrows. When competing against the average Joe, my scores were on par if not better in some shoots. Against the pros, well, they're pros for a reason. Why would a recurve or longbow be any different?
I have sights on almost all my recurves, and I enjoy using them for quick target ranging. The guys and gals that can shoot without them, my hat's off to you - that's incredible in my eyes.
I like the idea of a traditional aided and unaided group system. Off the shelf with no sights on an aluminum riser is no different than a woodriser at that point, and limb material should have no effect on classifications, IMO.
Put a sight or elevated rest on either, and you're in Aided. Simple as that.
QuoteOriginally posted by wihill:
Put a sight or elevated rest on either, and you're in Aided. Simple as that.
I would not go that far. To me a sight is a much bigger equipment change than an elevated rest.
Mark
QuoteTom, the IBO rules allow sights, etc. on longbows and recurves in some classes.
Only if you shoot in the compound classes.
Steve
IBO discontined the recurve aided(sighted) class in 1996...a good friend of mine won the last worlds in that class.
Wihill, I don't really see how someone who uses an elevated rest, but no sight, should be in the same class as someone with a sight.
Im all for anyone having a catagory for what they like, but Im happy they have classes with none of sights, rests and releases.
Back in the day, as I recall, there was a "war" between the field archers and the hunter classes (barebow and bowhunter). The field archers shot competitively with sights, stabilizers and more and they shot round targets in a field at longer distances.
The club I was a member of forbade the use of sights, string walking and face walking in order to keep the field archers from getting in and taking over the club, which had reportedly happenhed time and again back then. I was just a few years too young to understand all of the politics of the time, but I know there was a turf war going on and it ruined several area clubs.
I think it is simply a game and the home team gets to make the rules. If you don't want to play by their rules, you have to find another game or get together and make your own game.
ChuckC
"DAMN"! A DEAD HORSE THAT BLEEDS!! :biglaugh:
Paul Schafer used a rest.
Some here would not have liked him shooting at their events?
Steve
Tom the only way I know you can compete with sights around here on your recurve is shoot mixed shoots with compounds.A plastic stick on rest scares most people and sight pins is just too much for many.:)You could be competative in the bowhunter class at most wheely shoots however if you wanted to shoot for score.If you just wanted to shoot for fun I think you could do that at most of the trad shoots but make sure you state that at registration or you will hear some crap. :D
i grew up with barebow recurves, 'curves with sight pins and barebow c'pound. It was all just flinging arrows. Would love to get some of those adjustable metal sight pins if they were still available. My next curve will have the sight attachment threads tapped into the riser. I'd love to shoot both classes. Ben
Organized archery is as bad as organized religion. Two many high priests, shamans, and prophets telling everybody else what to do.
They can only do this on their turf, so that's why I spend my free time hiking the remnants of wild places. If some folks believe that instinctive shooting is mythology, and others believe that technology is a sin, who cares?
The IBO TRADITIONAL (TRD) dogma is:
FIRST COMMANDMENT: A recurve or longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers.
SECOND COMMANDMENT: Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot.
THIRD COMMANDMENT: The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow.
FOURTH COMMANDMENT: Face and/or string walking are not permitted.
FIFTH COMMANDMENT: No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks.
SIX COMMANDMENT: No type of draw check will be allowed.
SEVENTH COMMANDMENT: All arrows must be the same length and weight.
EIGHT COMMANDMENT: Aluminum or carbon arrows must have screw in field points; wood arrows may have glue on points.
NINTH COMMANDMENT: All arrows must have at least three feathers or vanes no less than four inches long.
TENTH COMMANDMENT: No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow, except a quiver clearly designed to hold arrows.
ELEVENTH COMMANDMENT: Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser only.
TWELFTH COMMANDMENT: An arrow side plate (if used) may only extend one (1) inch above the arrow.
THIRTEENTH COMMANDMENT: TRD archers will shoot from the orange stake.
I must not be trad, because although I follow the first 12 of these commandments I never shot from an orange stake in my life. Shameful as it seems, I quit scouting when it became all merit badges and sashes and no scouting.
Wow....the NFAA should have had some of you guys when they developed the organization in 1942; they could have been cleansed of all the rules-writing and saved us all from different classes of shooting.
QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Anderson:
I'm curious as to when "traditional" archery became "barebow" archery. Seems like most all "trad" shoots are really barebow shoots. Are there any shoots any more that have a classification for recurves/longbows with sights?It would be nice if some of the events like ATAR or ETAR would have a classification for bows with sights.
To me, traditional does not equal barebow.
I know, I know, I'm beating a deadhorse.
You say "tomato" and I say "tomato". What is "traditional" to me in not necessarily what is tradition to you.
Dan
George, if the IBO is Orthodox Trad, the NFAA must be Reformed Traditional. Here are the special dispensations allowed by these heretics:
1. Plunger buttons may be used to assist with arrow tuning. Expensive plunger buttons tend to offer micro adjustments and offer a smoother action than shooting off the shelf. This is directly forbidden by the 11th Commandment!
2.The NFAA traditional string may be of any color but must have a single color center serving. The IBO does not say, but this could be a violation of the 5th Commandment if the two colors accidentally are construed as sighting marks.
3.In the case of physical disability of the arms or hands, a chew strap may be used in place of fingers. As far as I can tell, the IBO 3rd Commandment states that since God gave Adam an index finger, if God took yours away, you must leave the Garden.
4. All arrows shall be identical in length, weight, diameter and fletching with allowances for wear and tear. IBO 9th Commandment is unclear on this, so cross your fingers on this one.
6.Bow slings are permissible. IBO frowns on permissiveness - this could be a violation of the 10th Commandment.
ISHI Trad Rules;
1. It is bad taste to talk at length with your mother-in-law.
2. The white man's gun is taboo.
3. Hit what you aim at.
QuoteOriginally posted by atlatlzoom:
Wihill, I don't really see how someone who uses an elevated rest, but no sight, should be in the same class as someone with a sight.
Please don't think that I'm an expert on these matters, as I'm just starting out in Trad archery.
The reason I put the elevated rests in with sights (for me) into an "aided" catagory is becuase of the amount of latitude that can be caused from a plunger setup, or even modified kick spring for the plate. The amount of spine tuning that these offer is astounding - I can turn a marginal arrow into a laser with just a turn of a screw. This allows me to use a carbon arrow that won't necessarily spine with the bow, drop my total arrow weight, and flatten my trajectory - effectively reducing any need for multiple pins or significant holdover on the target. We do this all the time in 3D and field. Essentially it would allow me to design an arrow that would allow me to burn a single point into my brain and compensate for it, much like most people do without a sight, but the adjustment range is significantly reduced.
I hope this made sense.
Right or wrong, I've never seen a set of competition rules as the defining set of limitations, but more as a guideline of what you can't do in order to win - eg, think outside the rules.
I'm of the belief that people should shoot what they are comfortable with whether it be from the shelf, using an elevated rest, sights, etc. After all the point is to hit what you are shooting at.
Way too much time is spent arguing about it rather then enjoying the sport. Also too many people end up shooting equip they may not be so comfortable with just because of someone elses definition of traditional.
Myself, I shoot 3d for fun and practice. I don't shoot 3D comps where I am required to turn in a card and when I shoot leagues at my club I shoot open and never turn in my score. That way I can shoot what I want and not have to worry about anyone complaining.
George ( Stout) - what happened to the people that shot with sights and such? Did they stay traditional when the compound bows got advanced; did those that went come back to traditional? Or did they stay happy with compounds ?
I am one that hunted for a long time in the fifties and sixties with a longbow and a recurve; and then through circumstance; had to buy a new bow. The only place I could find that sold bows; was selling only compounds- so I got off on that tanget for a few years.
But I shed the sights and compounds and returned to the path of enlightenment..
But of those that were fascinated with sights and string walking and stuff - how many went the compound route.. with wheels and pullies and cables and sights and range finders - and left traditional bowhunting....
and what percent came back to trad bows?
:campfire: :confused:
Olympic archery - shoot all you want with sights. Lots of shoots and tournaments. Biggest archery deal in the world every 4 years, and you can get a gold medal.
No need to add sights to traditional archey shoots, where a bunch of folks just want to hone the old person, stick, bow, target paradigm unaided by sighting gizmos.