I watched an old HH/Tembo VCR tape the other day, and in my opinion Howard Hill was a snap shooter, I just picked up a Recurve about 3 months ago, and everyone tells me not to snap shoot? If Howard Hill could do it with such great accuracy, why Can't I?
You can. Just because 'they' say it, or 'they' can't, doesn't mean you can't either.
The term snapshooter back in the day it was coined is not the same as the term some as of late had decided to change it to.
Snap shooting is a style, and wasn't meant to refer or mean a condition of out of control.
There's a lot of good snap shooters on this board, and they are defiantly in control of there shot. Fred Bear and Ben Pearson were also snap shooters. Ron LaClair snap shoots moving targets like no bodies business.
I have a thread I'll try and look up for ya.
There's a differnce between what everyone wants to call snap shooting and just plain being a fast shooter. Probably the best thing I have read on snap shooting was in TBH magazine by Fred Asbel. To me you snap shoot when your shooting too fast and don't hit anchor, whereever that anchor maybe for you. I find myself snap shooting from time to time but I still seem to be fairly accurate, but I'm not CONSISTANTLY accurate.
Here ya go......
QuoteOriginally posted by Ron LaClair:
I've been shooting a bow since I was a squirt... but I didn't really start to learn about form and style until I started shooting competition 49 years ago. While we never "stop" learning there are some things that become apparent after 50 years of study. One thing I do know for sure is there is no absolute style when it comes to shooting a bow.
When someone says you have to shoot this way or that way because all the top shots shoot that way, I say baloney. Some of the best shooters I've been privileged to know shot with what some would call an "unorthodox" style. Jim Pickering used a "Dead" release and high anchor when he competed in some of the top tournaments of the day in the 1960's. Everyone else in the Country shot with what was call "Power Archery" Jim whipped them all. He was a National Champion and a PAA Champion using a style that everyone said was "wrong". Jim Caspers another Archery Champion shot with a high elbow on his drawing arm. He actually pumped his arm up and down after he was at full draw, he said it helped him build up back tension.
As for the term "Snap shooter", I've been hearing it for 50 years and it was probably used before that. It has "always" been used to refer to someone that shot in one fluid motion, and whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.
I was privileged to talk to Fred Bear many times over the years and I remember him calling himself a "snap shooter". He said, "I'm a snap shooter,..I concentrate from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet". He said he couldn't shoot a compound because the let off interfered with the rhythm of his shooting style and broke his concentration.
"Good snap shooters"?...I've seen a lot of them. In the early years of the GLLI (Great Lakes Longbow Invitational) when scores were kept , we had the best shooters in the Country shooting for the honor of top dog. The shooters that won that shoot more often than not were what I call "Snap shooters" Very controlled, very meticulous, very accurate shooters whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.
Someone that "does not" come to full draw or touch their anchor before they release have what's called "target panic or what use to be called "IT". They are NOT...repeat NOT, snap shooters.
I think the problem is like what Terry said people today are "mis using" the term "snap shooter". Snap shooting is definitely not an inferior style of shooting a bow, however it must be realized that not everyone can master the snap shooting style. Those that can't may end up with target panic and be called snap shooters but in reality they are not. Maybe we should come up with another term to describe these failed snap shooters...."short snappers"?..."Half snappers"?
Out of curiosity, can someone who considers himself a snapshooter, come to anchor and hold for an extended period without releasing if they try?
If they can then they I believe they are snap shooters by choice. Not by convenience.
I can only speak for myself but its a real task to come to anchor, hold, then release. Much easier for me to just touch my anchor. I'm not saying any method is right or wrong.
Wipper snappers (LOL) sorry Terry couldn't help myself.
Have to say Ron LaClair sums it up quite accurately. The end results prove snap shooting is controlled and accurate. In MHO they are snap shooters by choice because it works for them.
Ray LOL that is good.
Mr. Hill
Called his style of shootin as Swing Draw....
Correct Mike.....he didn't pre point, he used the swing draw method to get the bow to anchor, and he didn't hold at anchor he snap shot.
I feel that Howard Hill, Ron Laclair to name a few have reached to me the pinnacle. they have flawless form from working so hard and long on it and shot so much, that when they shoot it appears as to be casual and to an untrained eye just flinging arrows. But if you slow it down and break it up, it is just all those hours and decades of hard work. Look at any old time longbow shooter and you will pretty much see this. Just a a Pro athlete appears to do things, Mike Jordan changing hand in mid dunk, Walter Payton effortlessly changing direction to avoid a touchdown, Tiger Woods approaching a ball and smacking it to the green, Bill Wallace "superfoot" lifting his left leg and delivering a 60mph roundhouse kick in a blink of the eye. All done with effort from decades of hard work.
In video "Hitting Them like Howard Hill" Shultz says when you come to full draw you should be on target and ready to shoot. There is should be no hesitation in releasing the arrow.
The key here is coming to full draw as stated already. I was told a person who did not come to full draw and shot fast was a "snap shooter".
Snap shooting can and does happen from shooters not being in shape and getting tired towards the end of a shoot. Being overbowed is also another way to learn the bad snapshooting. This can be solved by doing some body building.
I have seen my accuracy improve a good bit this past year. I changed my shooting style a bit due to a sore shoulder and don`t hold at anchor as long as I did in the past. This has enabled me to pick up a few lbs of bow weight as well. I bought the video by John Shulz and practiced daily.The arrows go where I`m looking and I shoot 30 yard groups better than my 20 yarders were a 2 years ago.Last year I killed 14 big game critters in 15 shots.My friends say I shoot fast.I ain`t happy with the one miss but he was a small pig......I think in John Shulze`s book he says " hold long ,hold wrong".RC
QuoteOriginally posted by George D. Stout:
If your natural draw is 28 and you're letting go at 25, then you are a snap shooter.
I disagree George, I'm in the camp with some of the others who posted earlier in this thread. In the circles I ran a snap shooter or snap shooting was not a bad thing and had nothing to do w/ loosing the arrow before reaching full draw. I've seen your definition of snap shooting being repeated on the computer now and then but that is completely different than my understanding of snap shooting from my three decades plus shooting stickbows.
Daddy Bear
When I think of snap shooting I picture someone releaseing with a short draw in an un-controled manner.I never considered any videos of Hill's shooting as snap shooting.He was always in control but just shot fast.It takes very little time to get on target when you have shot the thousands of arrows he has shot. :)For a new shooter however you will see a lot more of those un-controled shots if they are not real carefull.jmo
Fred described his shooting style to me once. Leaning back in his chair, grinning ear-to-ear, and with a wink in one of his arctic blue eyes he said. "Oh yeah, I shoot kinda quick, it's CONTROLLED snap shooting, HA!"
QuoteOriginally posted by chuck172:
Out of curiosity, can someone who considers himself a snapshooter, come to anchor and hold for an extended period without releasing if they try?
They could if they made a choice before hand to do so or if it was something they have practiced.
The way we shoot is based on the way we practice. If a snap shooter was told to shoot a target they would most likely shoot it the way they practiced shooting it.
Whatever shooting form an archer decides they want to do should be consistant and engrained within their subconscious so they can execute it instinctively so they can place all of their focus on aiming.
An archer who snap shoots has taught themselves to shoot that way...and can be done very accurately. It's not the same thing as target panic.
Ray ;)
What exactly is snap shooting?
Is it the "touch & go" that I see Hill using on some of his videos?
Thanks,
Allen
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Originally posted by chuck172:
Out of curiosity, can someone who considers himself a snapshooter, come to anchor and hold for an extended period without releasing if they try?
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Yes.
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"What exactly is snap shooting?
Is it the "touch & go" that I see Hill using on some of his videos?"
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Yes. Someone that shoots upon reaching anchor.
Usually, there are two different aiming methods used for those that 'snap shoot' and those that hold.
Snap Shooters usually Aim - Draw - Anchor - Release.
And folks that hold usually Draw - Anchor - Aim - Release.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
...
Snap Shooters usually Aim - Draw - Anchor - Release.
And folks that hold usually Draw - Anchor - Aim - Release.
IMO, that's exactly it.
Seems the real question here from Holepuncher was whether you can learn to shoot like Howard Hill. Maybe not with the same expertise, but maybe so, depending on your physical/eye-hand/capabilities and your willingness to practice. To point you toward achieving that goal I'd recommend you get John Schulz' book Straight Shooting and his DVD/Video Hittin' 'em Like Howard Hill, Bob Wesley's book and video and the the book and DVD/Video " Become the Arrow" by Byron Ferguson which are also good. These will give you a well rounded and good foundational understanding of learning to shoot along those lines and you can adapt elements in all three to suit you personally. All of these are available from 3 Rivers I think and should be in everyone's trad library for reference from time to time.
Hope this helps.
In answer to the question can someone that considers himself a snap or fast shooter also hold at anchor for a controlled amount of time the answer is yes.Especially when you are trying for a target that is way out there and small.I will draw right on it and then while holding start elevating the bow hand .While my eye is keeping the shaft and target in a nice lineup -(secondarily) my other vision part is setting a gap that is below the the shaft to the target since it is a large amount of holdover. This can take 4-7 seconds.What freaks me out though is I sometimes just casually throw in a smooth slower snap shot and watch the arrow come just as close!That leaves me scratching my head.
I'm going to throw in one more thought here. It has to do with experience. My father taught me combat handgunning and he always said speed comes with practice. You can be blindingly fast and a lousy shot but if you master the techniques of shooting you will get faster without thinking about it. I think this applies to archery too. A beginner should take their time and be sure that their form is correct. With proper form comes accuracy. With time and practice comes speed.
John
QuoteOriginally posted by jhansen:
I'm going to throw in one more thought here. It has to do with experience. My father taught me combat handgunning and he always said speed comes with practice. You can be blindingly fast and a lousy shot but if you master the techniques of shooting you will get faster without thinking about it. I think this applies to archery too. A beginner should take their time and be sure that their form is correct. With proper form comes accuracy. With time and practice comes speed.
John
Some words of wisdom right there, John!
Ray ;)
You're arguing semantics which alter based on your location. Having traveled around the US a fair bit I know asking for a pop in Michigan will get you a "carbonated beverage" but in California it will get you a blank stare. In some parts of the country snap shooter = controlled quick fluid shooter in others it means TP. Solve the whole argument and call it instinctive shooting that is after all what it is shooting from muscle memory not rational processing.
All of the best traditional bow hunters/trick shooters are/were instinctive shooters. You don't honestly think native American hunters thought "draw sight release" every time they let a shaft fly do you? No they practiced till they developed muscle memory and shooting became like throwing a ball. A pitcher doesnt pause to aim in the middle of his wind up for a 90 mile an hour pitch, works the same for traditional archery.
Holepuncher are the folks telling you too pause and aim from your anchor point wheelgun shooters or maybe light target bow shooters who use a sight system? If so they would be giving you good advice if you were using there bow, trouble is a compound has more in common with a rifle as far as shooting style goes than it dose a trad bow. Next time hand them your 50#+ hunting recurve and tell them to pause and aim, see how steady they hold your bow! BTW Mr. hill preferred bows in the 80 pound class, don't care how big you are, you have a split second of stability at full draw.
Agreed that the further/smaller the target the slower the motion but it's still one fluid motion 90% of the sighting done before you hit anchor.
There are many ways to learn things to develop muscle memory.
In athletics or in most things for that matter...the fundamentals are learned slowly and are broken down to the very basics until the student has mastered them.
Most of us learn to crawl before we walk...and walk before we run.
Ray ;)
In the couple of months since this thread started, I've worked on the fluid touch & go style that I see in the Hill videos.
It is working for me as my groups have gotten smaller IF I can keep my focus and hit my anchor.
One of the things that occured to me is if I am on target and I've hit anchor, there is no reason to hold onto the arrow. Holding just gives me time to doubt my shot. Doubt leads to hesitation and that leads to poor shots.
I'm not even close to Hill's skill at this, but I am a lot better than I was before.
I still have to concentrate on the basics of form and continue to practice them, but I'm starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel.
Has anyone else had this experience with snap shooting?
I just recently read where G. Fred Asbell was sharing those exact same thoughts explaining why he released quickly or shortly after he touched anchor.
It seemed to be his way of curing his Target Panic.
Ray ;)
I snap shoot my 55# Bear Grizzly. If I bring everything together properly I get tight groups. If my concentration breaks during the draw, which is were it usually happens, or my form is off then it looks like I've been shooting with my eyes closed.
G. Fred Asbell said "How well you can shoot depends on how well you can concentrate."
Snap-shooting - the good kind - is a very precise, and very controlled fuid form where the shot is executed in one smooth motion, and you will be hard put to find an achor hold of any kind watching or videoing it.
I shoot my best that way, with a swing draw, pulling through the shot, attention focused on the target spot, and so far, it's the only way I can shoot a 1 inch group at 20 yards.
Lots of hunting situations do not permit a free swing draw. For those I use a push-pull draw, with the same fluid single motion and release, pulling through the shot. Put three arrows in a ping-pong ball at 18 yards that way, last week.
I call it a floating form, as the whole thing is about drawing the line of the arrow to the target spot and releasing along that line with no torgue, cast or pluck, and no set anchor. It's all about the "line" and feeling the line. It's sort of a "pump", and it produces unbelievably consistent shots, on the spot. If you want to hold all day with that line, still pulling - still pushing, you can, and release when ready. I find my groups open up when I do that, but it still works fine. Perhaps, that last bit is the same as comming to anchor, but for me, i don't seem to have a great anchor spot on my face that conforms to the "line", so i let it float.
Now this snap-shooting does not dispense with any of the essentials of good form. Hand and shoulder position, orientation to the taget, focus on the spot, drawing with even back tension (the "pump" is all back tension) with relaxed bowarm and drawing hand.It adds pulling through the release, and you get a feel for full draw from the tension, instead of a spot on your face.
If it were not a considtent form, how could it put 4 arrows in a 1-inch group and on the spot?
Snap shooting is not for everyone, and I can't say it's a superior form. But I shoot it, and amaze myself, so I think it superior for hunting. Anyone that wants to can learn it, but don't let me mess you up on form.
Oh, yeah, it's not about speed. It can be nice and smooth and slow - just one fliud motion. If you ever get to see old films of the Wilhelm Bothers from the '30s - one shoots dice of the other's head using a swing draw and snap shooting from the hip level - same form.
We should never forget how much Howard was trained, short distances were little trouble for him to hit, just out from the "belly" (sorry for German English). He had his moves, his body completely under control, we should not think that he was a sloppy shot, just because we watch him shooting on tapes where his performances are looking easy...
I "snap-shoot"...that is to say that I focus precisely on my target and draw to my anchor in the corner of my cheek and loose the arrow. For me, this method works extremely well and is not only quick, but accurate. However, if I attempt to hold my anchor for an extended period, my shooting is negatively affected.
For me, it is a matter of letting my instincts and muscle memory take over and not over-thinking it...