This is just a general question about good form.
I realize anything is okay if you are good, but in general, for someone who is learning and trying get good form down--should I strive to have my bow be vertical when I'm shooting, or is some angle okay(shooting RH, top tip is slightly right of vertical, so that arrow sets in the corner of the rest...kinda like the young lady in the Tomahawk Bows ad on top of the previous page)? If I'm shooting better with a slight angle, should I keep trying it that way?
Thanks for your thoughts.
Gnat,
There is no "pat" answer, most people who use a reference system, such as gap, split vision, etc...often times prefer a bow that is vertical. Having said that, even some of them will cant a bow to an extent.
The things related to form, have very little if nothing to do with the degree by which a shooter cants his/her bow.
It has to deal a few of these things that should not change regardles of what type of bow is being shot. 1) consistant grip on the bow. 2) a slight push on the bow toward the target. 3) the elbow of the drawing hand should maintain a straight and level alingment with the arrow, and if viewed from the above, the arrow, the drawing arm should be in perfect alingment. 4) a rock steady follow through with no arm dropping until after the arrow hits the spot. 5) a continuous line of energy, with the drawing elbow with tension away from the target, and the bow hand pushing slightly toward the target.
I may have missed a thing or two, but these are the things that should be focused on as far a form goes. Regarding the angle of your bow, find the most comfortable one and stick with it. Oh, by the way! I have seen a lot of great archers, that when you watched them shoot, you would say that their form really was bad. The thing that made it work for them was the fact that they did the same thing on every shot. I guess if the arrow goes where it is supposed to on a regular basis, you gotta be doin something right!
Good Shooting my friend.
I agree with what Scott posted.
Two times that you want to hold your bow vertically is when you are shooting an Olympic recurve with sights and when you are bare shaft tuning.
I think that the string walkers and face walkers also tend to hold vertically, but I'm not too familiar with these systems so I may be wrong.
There are probably other reasons for a vertical hold that others can post.
Allen
You can cant it how ever you want or not at all and hold it straight up....you can lay it over horizontal...or even reverse cant.
How you cant is not related to form...your form should follow your cant.
I see questions arise about 'where' to cant, 'how much to cant', 'can you cant the same way twice'? Target archers need to drive tacks and execute the same exact shot over and over....BUT! Bowhunters, expecially those that spend a lot of time on the ground need to be a bit more versital IMO. They should be able to manufacture and deliever shots from the terrain and environment Mother nature throws at them. I hope to show that you can cant the bow how ever you want to, and that it doesn't have to be the same angle every time.
Bowhunter's have also been acused of 'dumbing down' the sport of archery by non-huntiung target archers.....but I say with a little effort and imagination, we can jazz it up pretty good.
These are extreme deviations of my normal shot....Its a bear target, but I'm practicing my low and tight hog shot. The black shafts got lost in the internet conversion....but the target impacts are 2 inches higher than the fletches due to the camera angle.
Dial up.....
Extreme Cant Angles I (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terryshoot1.wmv)
Extreme Cant Angles II (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terryshoot2.wmv)
Extreme Cant Angles III (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terryshoot3.wmv)
Broadband.....
Extreme Cant Angles (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terryshootcomp.wmv)
Over the Pond...... (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry-2.wmv)
I started out shooting barebow vertical, a carry over from when I shoot my compounds with sight/release.
As my form developed, I gradually developed a slight cant, just enough to open up the sight picture. I found that I shoot all my bows that are set up for barebow better this way.
When I shoot with more than say, 10 degrees of cant, I have to progessively raise my bow hand to put the arrow on target, and have more issues with clothes interference.
I think vertical is easier to be consistent with, but I make the trade off for a better sight picture.
That's just my experience, lots of guys shoot with way more cant than I w/o having any problems...
Gnat, Terry showed you just what a good instinctive archer can do with canting the bow whether flat horizontal, slight reverse ,or completely upside down.The arrow shelf and arrow are right at your hand so a 360degree rotation doesnt make much differance. I can do that with my feet horizontal flat as well. If you can shoot better at various distances and positions holding the bow vertical then do it that way.If you cant then cant!
Ditto to all the advice above ;)
Ray ;)
Terry,
I'm sure you enjoyed making the videos, but you didn't look happy. Not to say you were snarling or menacing, but you sure looked annoyed. At one point I thought I heard you growl:)
Daddy Bear
I have found to get the same sight picture from bow to bow that my cant will vary depending on the depth of the sight window. Recurve - my average is more vertical than with my pignuts which have very shallow sight windows which I lay over even more than my Schulz bows. Shooting down out of a tree stand it is good to be able to cant in a variety of angles.
fall of 2007 found me up in a tree stand with a shot at a deer at about 12 yards away.I was about 15 feet up.There was a dogwood canopy of branches from chest height on up blocking the deer and me. I had to crouch low and lay the bow completely flat 180 to get under it.And it worked.
Whump Sez:I :notworthy: don't care if he did look mad that boy can shoot! Hunt safe
Wow Terry! That was impressive :clapper:
QuoteOriginally posted by Daddy Bear:
Terry,
I'm sure you enjoyed making the videos, but you didn't look happy. Not to say you were snarling or menacing, but you sure looked annoyed. At one point I thought I heard you growl:)
Daddy Bear
That's my 'Game Face'...aint ya heard of that? and I growl back sometimes. :D
Just figure out what cant angle is your is comfortable for your 'go to' shot. Once you get your shot down....then you can go from there and practice from other angles.
I'd like to toss a grasshopper in that pond and see what dines on it!
Good shooting
Close rang I can't my longbow, 40 yds out I hold more Vertical...
Wow Terry!
That's some great shooting. I need to try the reverse cant, I had never given it a thought until now.
Thanks!
Bob
You can shoot standing on your head in a foot of water if you do it again and again and again until it is instinctive.
My advice to anyone who is concerned with form is to stop being concerned with form. And if you cant get your mind off form, Ill bet you are standing at a target.
I think we all question our own form at different times as we progress. Stump shooting (if you got 'em in your neck of the woods) is the the best practice. Shooting under and around brush, through trees, different distances, varied conditions, sitting, kneeling, laying down, is where its at.
For me, it's a lifestyle. Over time, your brain will account for any condition or distance you might want or need to shoot and you will hit what your looking at. Challenging yourself is great too. If you ever get a chance to stalk a caribou on open tundra, you'll want to be able to shoot laying flat on your back!!
Never say "can't"... just cant and shoot!!!
consistency,consistency,consistency,git-er-done,but git-er-done the same way all the time. :thumbsup: :coffee:
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
QuoteOriginally posted by Daddy Bear:
Terry,
I'm sure you enjoyed making the videos, but you didn't look happy. Not to say you were snarling or menacing, but you sure looked annoyed. At one point I thought I heard you growl:)
Daddy Bear
That's my 'Game Face'...aint ya heard of that? and I growl back sometimes. :D
Just figure out what cant angle is your is comfortable for your 'go to' shot. Once you get your shot down....then you can go from there and practice from other angles. [/b]
Terry,
This is a short video I just put together for a scout group on using the reverse cant for hunting. No extreme angles, just basic technique to shoot around the weak side of an obstacle. I'm not in your league, but my smile might be a bit nicer:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeJJTTtse1w
later,
Daddy Bear
LOL...I loved that video, Daddy Bear. Not only did you look to be shooting well...but you also looked to be having a blast...which to me should be one of the main goals.
Were you purposely trying to grin real big to make the video nicer? ;)
Ray ;)
There's no point in worrying about form at all unless you want to be a good and consistent shooter. If being a good shot isn't important to you then form needn't be a consideration, either. You can always just grip-r-n-rip-r if you don't care where the arrow goes. I get the impression that there is a misconception that if you learn to shoot with good form then you can't shoot in an awkward position after that. On the contrary, you'll just be able to shoot in an awkward position better after you have attained good form and good shooting techniques.
Comparing to pool, learning good technique, good stroke and a good bridge doesn't keep you from shooting behind your back or one-handed when you need to. With archery, it's not even that complex because you can't shoot one handed and you'll never take a hunting shot behind your back, although it makes for fun "trick" shooting if tricks are the goal.
QuoteOriginally posted by Papa Bull:
There's no point in worrying about form at all unless you want to be a good and consistent shooter. If being a good shot isn't important to you then form needn't be a consideration, either. You can always just grip-r-n-rip-r if you don't care where the arrow goes. I get the impression that there is a misconception that if you learn to shoot with good form then you can't shoot in an awkward position after that. On the contrary, you'll just be able to shoot in an awkward position better after you have attained good form and good shooting techniques.
Hey Papa Bull!
I agree. Looking back at my comments,I can see where it may have sounded as though I was saying form doesnt matter. Not that you were adressing me, but I like to wear shooes that fit!! Keeps me honest and reasonably humble!! LOL
I guess where Im coming from is that I have seen SOOOO many archers get frustrated with their form. Ive been there... done that. Not fun.
Shooting bow is as much a mental game as is baseball or many other spoerts. You can get into slumps and doubts can creep in and when you are picking yourself apart, your mental game is down the tubes.
The best advice I ever gave someone was quit thinking and just shoot. May not be the advice for competitive, but for barebow shooting it is.
As a simple, pick a spot and shoot kinda guy, I see "thinking" as a brawback. When I engage my mind to figure out what's going on, I only reduce or eliminate the natural ability of my brain to do it's thing.
Most of what we do is learned behavior. The simpler the task, the quicker brain takes over and allows for unconscious action or reaction. Archery is not one of the simpler tasks, however with persistence and the ability to cut oneself a little slack, most anyone can become proficient.
Some of the best trad shooters I know look like they are having an epilectic seizures when they shoot. But they have been shooting spastically for so long it works. LOL!
Daddy Bear, thanks for the vid. When I get moved down to the farm in South dakota, Ill have to invite you out for some awesome pass shooting set-ups for geese. Some great pheasant action goes without saying.
Whatever works for you. I dont think there is a right or wrong as long as you are comfortable and can be consistent and accurate.
I think Trad shooting is more art than science.
Heya Terry,
What am I missing here? How do you cant to left and keep the arrow against the shelf? I shoot a widow recurve, and ever since I bumped up the shelf a little underneath the sealskin, my arrow likes to come off the shelf. If I can adopt something into my form like you have to keep the arrow tight against the shelf no matter what, that would be a huge help.
Thanks,
Dave
I agree with what has been said and shown here but would like to add; that the construction of the riser and the thickness of the arrow can come into play shooting off the shelf as well as with rests. I have a longbow right now that seems to be losing it's center shot somewhat and tends to shoot to the left a little, even with arrows that are light spine for it,although this can be corrected by canting more. In fact I've found that canting deeply can overcome other problems with tuning or the lack of. I personally like to keep the bow fairly vertical but off the shelf you usually have to cant some to get more stability.If I cant too much with my normal setups the bow will shoot to right. Too strait up and down and it will shoot to the left or even the right depending on the shelf construction.
I guess my point is bows will have different amounts of center cut. Self bows might have no center shot at all and have to be shot with extreme cant to correct it. I have a big river 50s style recurve that is at the other end of the spectrum and likes 22 and 23/64 arrows otherwise it will shoot to the right with skinny arrows.
I think for a new shooter starting out they should shoot vertical for a while just to get the sight picture down...its just the basics of archery...canting can come later
Dave..........I'll answer in the morning......been gone and got some catching up to do....
Thanks Terry,
I've been experimenting with a slightly deeper and more aggressive hook. That allows me additional cant to some extent, but I feel like my accuracy suffers somewhat.
Dave
Dave....I covered this in The Bowhunters of Trad Gang.com DVD as well as other things...easier to see than read but I'll try.
Shelf built up or not, or no shelf at all shouldn't matter. Its all in the string fingers.
The string needs to be in the 1st joints of the fingers, and the fingers need to be pointing back at you before you draw the bow, and 'pinch' pressure should be applied to the arrow nock. Also, your wrist needs to be rolled out a bit.
Once you start to gain weight in the draw, your fingers will start to 'uncurl' slightly and your wrist will start coming back in line and these two things will apply lateral pressure on the arrow against the side plate holding the arrow in place as you continue to draw.
Hope that makes sense.
Thanks Terry,
Got it. Not about depth of hook, but rather placement of fingers (finger pads actually) BEFORE draw. I will start testing this out.
Sweet!
Dave