I have been working on all aspects of traditional shooting and as far as accuracy sometimes I have it and sometimes I don't; consistancy has been very elusive for me. I have been focusing only on the "spot" and largly ignoring the arrow itself. Today I was shooting particularly badly at about 12 yards so I thought, what the heck, I moved back to 20 yards ( I only keep track of yardage for learning purposes) this time I focused both on the "spot" and seeing the arrow tip point directly at it and I put 2 out of 3 in the bullseye at 20 yards! So I moved back up to 12 yards and the result was the same; I do not think it is gap shooting because no matter the distance there is no "gap", I simply see the spot and the arrow shaft pointing directly at it simultaneously and as long as my form and release are good the arrow goes right where I want it. Would this be "split vision"?
sound like split vision. some call it indirect aiming or instinctive gap. if it works, use it. congrats on the good shooting!
zinndl,
Just trying to understand what you see and mean.
When you say there is no gap, that basically means that there is no gap created between the arrow tip and the target because the arrow tip is directly on the target.
If the arrow tip is not on the target and below it...there will always be some type of gap between the arrow tip and the target whether you are consciously aware of it or not.
Does that make sense?
So if there is no gap at 12yrds. or at 20yrds. that means your point on doesn't change if that is what you are trying to say.
Ray ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by BLACK WOLF:
zinndl,
Just trying to understand what you see and mean.
When you say there is no gap, that basically means that there is no gap created between the arrow tip and the target because the arrow tip is directly on the target.
If the arrow tip is not on the target and below it...there will always be some type of gap between the arrow tip and the target whether you are consciously aware of it or not.
Does that make sense?
So if there is no gap at 12yrds. or at 20yrds. that means your point on doesn't change if that is what you are trying to say.
Ray ;)
Yea that makes sense. There was no gap, I guess another way to put it is that I was sighting down the shaft to the target.
Either way just like so many other things I have tried, this afternoon it all went to crap!!!!!
I am may be dead wrong but I feel like my form, release and follow thru are reasonably good, butI am getting really frustrated because I cannot seem to grab hold of being consistant.
We all would love nothing more than to help you.
Is there any way you can post a video of you shooting or at least some pics?
That would definitely help us help you!
Tell us what is going on in your head as you draw, aim and shoot. What exactly are you thinking and doing?
Give us a play by play.
Ray ;)
In Gap Shooting there are two points across a given range where your arrow point references directly on the target. The Jenkins Method is based on the trajectory between the these two near & far Zero Points.
Without seeing you shoot, I would guess you are actually gap shooting but 20 yards is pretty far out for a near Zero Point. With my recurves the near Zero Point is about 10 yards with 20 yards being my mid-point gap(about 20"). Based on my experience I would guess you are shooting a gap, you maybe just aren't aware of it.
The Jenkins Method, BTW, is astonishingly accurate once you get the hang of it. I use it almost exclusively with my Reflex Caribou which I shoot barebow/fingers. The fast, flat trajectory of the Bou' takes full advantage of the Jenkins Method. Don't ask me why, but I shoot my recurves with a more "instincti-gap" style. Hard to explain the difference. Probably the closest I can come is that my IG method is less deliberate than the Jenkins method...
I know what your talking about I SHOOT LIKE THAT. I see the spot and some of my arrow at the same time I concentrate on the spot only. It seems that the arrow is right there under the spot, but if I try to focus on the point of the arrow as to gap shoot I mess up.I do not know what to call it but it works well just do not concentrate on the arrow. I would gap shoot if I could but my eyes do not focus properly, but this other method is not bad. It is instinctive while being aware of your arrow position in your subconscience. that is the best I can do.
If an archer is consciously adjusting any reference in relationship to the target even though they may be focusing only on the target, they are not truly aiming totally Instinctively.
If an archer is aiming by consciously adjusting a gap within their periphial vision in relationship to the target even when there focusing 100% on the target...it's Gap Shooting.
It usually occurs with archers, who start out in the beginning by being very aware of their gaps and through repetition and time...less and less conscious effort needs to be placed on analizing the gap and it NEARLY becomes instinctive.
This is exactly how I aim the majority of the time.
When I aim totally Instinctively it's when I'm shooting very fast or when I'm shooting aerial targets. The techinique primarily relies on using proprioception, muscle memory and the sight picture subconsciously to adjust the aim while I consciously focus on only the target.
Gap Shooting and Instinctive Aiming can be very much alike. The ONLY difference that they have between them...is what the archer is or is not consciously aware of while they are aiming.
Just remember...it's not a sin to do either one ;)
Ray ;)
zinndl:
I think you might be able to build on your experience at 20 yards. When you are trying to shoot instinctively I think it is sound to sometimes give some attention the the arrow mainly to check two things: one, that the butt of it is directly under your eye, and two, that the arrow is in line with the target.
These two matters can go wrong and we must notice that and correct it before we switch back to instinctive.
Also, I like that your described 'pointing' the arrow at the target. I think that is a very useful idea in instinctive archery. So I suggest you repeat your 20 yard method often for several weeks until it is really solid. Then you coud work it down in yardage gradually.
At really short yardage on targets near the ground many of us tend to shoot high. When you get to them tilt your spine forward and set your goal to get down to the target. I think your instinctive skills will get the hang of it.
When that is done you can start working out from 20 to maybe 25. Beyond that things start to break down for most archers. Get back to us then and we will work on that together.
In the meantime build on the success and perception you have discovered for your self. And kindly let us know how it goes. - lbg
By the way, there is a name for it. It is called 'instinctive!'. That does not mean it is easy or automatic. You have to work to master it. - lbg
Thanks to all for the advice. While I have had reasonable success sighting down the shaft, lately I have been trying to just look and shoot, kinda like the "throwing a baseball" scenario. No matter what I try or what may be working at the present moment I still cannot seem to remain consistent, I suppose that just comes with many hours of practice, which is fine because I love to shoot! One problem I have (if anyone can offer advise, please do) is that when I come to full draw I tend to try to be too deliberate in focus and release and I end up holding too long and get shakey.
QuoteOriginally posted by zinndl:
Thanks to all for the advice. While I have had reasonable success sighting down the shaft, lately I have been trying to just look and shoot, kinda like the "throwing a baseball" scenario. No matter what I try or what may be working at the present moment I still cannot seem to remain consistent, I suppose that just comes with many hours of practice, which is fine because I love to shoot! One problem I have (if anyone can offer advise, please do) is that when I come to full draw I tend to try to be too deliberate in focus and release and I end up holding too long and get shakey.
Well I have to tell you that it seems like I am reading something I should have written about 4 months ago. I was exactly in your shoes. Am I doing this should I be doing this is my form wrong are my arrows wrong why can I stack them in a group at this yardage and miss everything up close? What helped me more then anything is I read Fred G Asbell's book on instinctive shooting. I had all kinds of bad habits starting and within a dozen shots after reading his book it all started to come together.
Different people call it different things, zinndl, but I consider it a form of gap shooting. Some consider it "instinctive". Others consider it "split vision" Some consider it "instinctive gapping". The problem is that we're the only ones that know what we really see and just how we see it and just how we use it and sometimes we aren't even sure ourselves, so it's hard to say for sure what the proper name is for your style of shooting. That could change from person to person and, ironically, they could all be right.
We've all got an arrow in front of our face when we shoot and that's never going to change so we might as well figure out how to use that and anything else that will help.
You see the arrow in one line with the spot, right? You can also see the gap if you choose. I think the former is probably just a short cut for the latter. The same constellation offers different ways of discovering a pattern amd memorising it. I used to shoot the way you describe zinndl (string walk now).
On another note, I still have no idea what "subconscious" referencing is all about, or "conscious" referencing, for that matter. I learnt to tie my shoe laces by watching my fingers do it. 45 years later, I don't watch them as intensely. I think I still tie them the same way, though.
Best,
Martin
zinndl, If you want consistancy you have to get this from form work. You cant do this and still try shooting at targets and group shooting. I dont even reccommned a blank bale since you will then try to shoot at the first arrow and therefore you now have a new target . How about this- tack on two layers of heavy carpet or rug pieces about 2-3ft square and no patterns or images.Just a solid color. Now change your points on 6 arrows to either rubber blunts or steel blunts. Stand NO MORE than 10 yds and carefully do your shot sequence and stop at full draw . Count if you like ,re aim at a distant target that you will not release at and then bring it back to the carpet and then carefully get the smoothest release you can. These little games will slow everything down and allow you full concentration/control on each aspect of the form including seeing a very clear sight picture. Youll get so good youll be able to place the point of the arrow on any spot other than the middle area of the carpet that you have been shooting at.Oh yeah and notice after the first shot bounces off you still have a blank area with no target to worry about hitting. Try it.
QuoteOriginally posted by zinndl:
One problem I have (if anyone can offer advise, please do) is that when I come to full draw I tend to try to be too deliberate in focus and release and I end up holding too long and get shakey.
There's really nothing wrong with being too deliberate in focus and release by themselves.
Holding your bow so long that you start shaking is the problem...which really isn't caused by a deliberate focus and release.
You should be able to easily hold your bow at full draw for at least 5 to 10 sec. without shaking.
Shaking is usually caused by a number of factors from fatigue to doubt.
#1. Being overbowed.
#2. Doubting or over analizing your aiming ability.
#3. Doubting or over analizing something in your form.
#4. Or anything distracting that may enter your thoughts besides accomplishing the task at hand.
The best way to eliminate most of those is getting a light weight bow and working on your form by shooting close distance at a blank bale until your form becomes instinctive.
Than you can start working on aquiring the right sight picture for different distances.
Ray ;)
Great suggestions cvarcher!
Ray ;)
How about "ingrained form" instead of "instinctive form", Ray?
Just a suggestion to avoid unnecessary bickering. ;)
More seriously though: zinndl has nothing to gain by shooting 10,000 arrows at a blank bale and ingraining his form... not unless it's GOOD form that he's ingraining.
Best,
Martin
Engraining his form so that he does the same thing every time and achieves good consistant arrow flight...IS GOOD FORM.
There are specific things an archer can do to make it easier...but whatever form an archer develops the one thing that it needs to be is consistant. IT DOES NOT NEED TO LOOK EXACTLY LIKE A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE.
The key is consistantcy...and the way you develop that is by shooting lots of arrows...and a way to make it easier to learn is by taking advantage of the skeletal and muscular systems.
If an archer can NOT shoot with consistant form or is struggling with accuracy...they need to examine or re-examine what they are doing or not doing.
Ray ;)
As far as the use of the word 'instinctive' as it relates to archery...maybe you just need to except that it's been used for quite some time and applies to many aspects of archery instead of trying to rename it...IF you truly want to stop any bickering ;)
Ray ;)
I was actually joking when I spoke of avoiding bickering about instinctive, Ray. You're assuming a sinister spirit my post didn't contain. ;)
If you'd asked, I would have told you that my casual comments earlier on only concerned the notions of 'conscious' versus 'subconscious' referencing - or 'aware' versus 'unaware' or whatever (seems the words will never be used properly anyway). It's all just a question of degree and doesn't matter much, when you consider my shoelace analogy. Things one does frequently become almost automatic, like rolling a cigarette or picking up a cup. They are initially all learnt 'consciously'. With practice, one can later pay less attention to them. Doesn't seem worth a theory of body orientation or a label to me. And certainly not worth an argument. Take swimming, for example. Do you badly need a label for the fact that you don't need to consider every stroke when swimming, because you learnt it 30 or 40 years ago? Would you get all heated up about it being 'mindless', or whatever you wanted to call it?
Best,
Martin
Well...hmmmm...let's see...there's the butterfly, breast stroke, dog paddle, backstroke, freestyle, sidestroke, Trudgen and crawl to name a few of the different swimming techiniques.
Each has a specific name and a specific description to communicate what exactly is happening so that someone can teach it and someone else can learn it.
Archery is no different...there's Point of Aim, Gap, Split Vision, Face Walking, String Walking and Instinctive to name a few.
What basically seperates each one as a unique and different way to aim a bow and arrow...is what the archer is consciously focusing on.
It's as simple as that...there's no need to try and make things more confusing.
Each aiming techinique has been given a name and description.
And by the way...I don't need to assume anything about you. If you noticed I had smiley faces after my comments too to indicate my intensions ;)
Ray ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by BLACK WOLF:
Engraining his form so that he does the same thing every time and achieves good consistant arrow flight...IS GOOD FORM.
Not so sure about this one either, Ray.
For one thing: How do you notice "good consistent arrow flight" at close distance to a blank bale, as you advocate?
If there were a target face, there would at least be (albeit minimal) feedback. But at a blank bale, one has to
know what one is striving for - there are no visual indicators of success like arrow flight or impact point.
Best,
Martin
QuoteOriginally posted by Martin Farrent:
For one thing: How do you notice "good consistent arrow flight" at close distance to a blank bale, as you advocate?
If there were a target face, there would at least be (albeit minimal) feedback. But at a blank bale, one has to know what one is striving for - there are no visual indicators of success like arrow flight or impact point.
Best,
Martin [/QB]
I always use a bareshaft to check for good consistant arrow flight and to work on form.
When trying to engrain form to the point it becomes instinctive...I personally don't like shooting at a target...because it can destract me from my goal by shifting some of my concentration to the target rather than the aspect of my form I'm trying to work on.
Ray ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by BLACK WOLF: When trying to engrain form to the point it becomes instinctive...I personally don't like shooting at a target...because it can destract me from my goal by shifting some of my concentration to the target rather than the aspect of my form I'm trying to work on.
Okay Ray, it appears we're on the same planet.
I was suggesting that a target would at least provide more feedback than simply shooting at a blank bale, without even knowing the object of the exercise. But since you do now acknowledge that you work on
aspects of form, it seems you agree that one should know what one is attempting to achieve in some detail. Which is what I said: GOOD form is the object. Not merely bale practice ad nauseam, as often recommended and perhaps unintentionally suggested by yourself.
Actually though, zinndl, I think bale practice is probably a poor remedy in your particular case. You can bale-work on relaxing your release, but I guess the problem is too strong a focus on aiming. So once that aspect re-enters your shooting, the bale work will have achieved very little (because it excluded the actual problem). You actually need to shoot at targets a lot, I'd say, and work out a way of relaxing your mental attitude to aiming. That will probably be a thing between you and yourself - i.e. psychological and different for every one of us.
That said, however, one of the reasons I gave up the 'pointing' aiming method you describe is that it's sometimes hard to see that line down the arrow into the spot. It's a pretty sensitive sight picture, which can undermine confidence and lead to over-focus. The stringwalking sight picture, for example, is much simpler and thus more solid.
Best,
Martin
Double post occurred while editing the above, so I deleted the content here. Sorry, M.
Just thought I might add this, zinndl:
You'll often get the standard advice to "work on your form" when you post any kind of problem, and working on your form can never be a bad thing (when done properly). But form isn't everything.
As an example: If you were gapping, and your gaps were simply wrong, working on form would solve nothing... it could even lead to compensation and compromise good form to make the bad gaps work.
And if you have a mental problem at some stage of the shot cycle, working on your form will possibly boost your overall confidence, but little else. Look at it the other way round: If the problem actually were form, working on the psychology of the shot process would hardly solve it, right? Various ailments require various cures, and the bale ain't aspirin.
Best,
Martin
Thanks to all for all the great info and help :archer: