I often hear people talk about their effective range being "X" yards and closer. What criteria is being used to determine that yardage? The reason Im asking is because as of today I would have said that I was money out to 20, and could hit a paper plate "more often than not" out to 30yds. Today when I put that to the test shooting at a paper plate I went 6 for 10 at 20yds and only hit 2 out of 5 at 30yds. My ego took a bit of a hit to say the least. I know we want to hit vitals 100% of the time but in reality that is not going to happen. So what do you guys say is an acceptable hit rate on the plate for determining effective range?
Sounds like maybe yours may be fifteen.
On a 10" plate? With no highlighted smaller aiming point?
95% or better (19 out of 20). With hunting clothes on.
I practice out to 80 yards but limit my hunting to 25. At 20 yards I can keep a tennis ball worried.
Keep in mind , there's no warm up shots while on stand .
You could have set for several hours before the " SHOT " presents itself .
So , you might want to consider the very first shot of the day to be your indicator of what your affective range would be .
Keep notes and every time your going to shoot , take the first shot and that's your score for the day .
Very the distance of where the first shot is .
Won't take very long before you find your" Confidence range "
Enjoy and keep shootin' .
2d what Graps said. For hunting the first shot will tell you.
What do folks use to determine their effective range? Mostly, wishful thinking and some self-delusion. I say this tongue-in-cheek, of course, but i do think most overestimate their effective range.
When I taught Bowhunter Education, we used an activity to help students develop a realistic view of their effective range. We asked them to write down their personal effective range on a piece of paper. Then, we later took them to the range with a steel deer silhouette with a hole for the vital area. We then asked them to go to the effective range they wrote down and shoot through the hole in the target. Voluntary, of course.
When faced with the actual challenge, and the possibility of a broken arrow, most declined. And most who shot, broke their arrows on the steel target. This included more wheelie shooters than stick bow shooters, but the principle holds.
Most of us think we're better shots than we are.
Too, it's lot different shooting at a critter in the heat of the moment than it is in a relaxed setting on the range. Effective range decreases even more when actually hunting.
Animals dont care much about stackin arrows.
It's that first shot that counts.
SO Im going to go with some of the other posts here as well. for me a 10" plate needs to be 100% because the vitals on a deer sized animal are smaller...So yeah your effective range on deer is probably 15ish but may soon improve. Not to sound cocky but Iv'e shot with many many folks who have shot for years and have an effective range less than yours. They often do quite well on animals because they are excellent hunters.
Some good comments here, this is a very personal decision and I always say its best to air on the side of caution (something I haven't always done) for hunting scenarios I think the best thing to do is make several first shot situations at different yardages and then see from there.
For me this distance depends on my setup and size of the target as well as how I happen to be feeling. for instance it shortens a few yards when I use heavier arrows and shortens greatly when I go from a recurve to the self bow which is not nearly as proficient in my hands.
I'll tell you like I told my younger brother, "she'll never go out with you unless you ask" ...he's married to his high-school sweetheart now.
I don't care what you say, any shot at an animal is a risk
Same for me, too. If I can't keep 100% of my shots, from my first to my last, in the vitals/pie plate of a static target, I'm not bothering shooting that far on a live critter. For practice I'll shoot as far as I can see, but not on an animal.
For the last five years or so that means no further than 20 yards for me, and most have been at 10 yards. I just hunt in PA though, so close shot opportunities are relatively common. I can't control what an animal is going to do but can certainly control whether or not I shoot. Don't mind hunting another day if there's no shot.
I agree with those opinions above. Where I hunt in Upper Michigan it can be brutally cold, my first shot could be after 3 hours of freezing. I limit myself to 15 yards 90% of the time and never further than 20 yards.
The range you can effectively hit the spot your looking at with that very first arrow. That means even if you don't shoot for a month.
I read this in one of Fred Bear's books years ago and it made sense to me.
A hunter's first shot should not ever be totally cold. I get on the stand and pull 20-25 times depending on temperature. Every hour or so I will pull a few more times, all in an effort to be at least "somewhat" ready. Granted, you northern guys may still be cold, even if you continually pull during the heart of winter. Fortunately, for me, our southern winters aren't usually that bad. Even when well warmed up, 20 yards is my maximum distance. I am working on 25 yards and am pretty consistent. But, I am not quite there yet.
It is often my second arrow that counts as i usually take a shot at a leaf from my stand-- usually a good confidence builder for me. I like my shots on deer 15yds and in.
An animal is an animal. Targets are targets. Confusing the two is known as the ludic fallacy -- a thought error that occurs when you think that games (target shooting) are the same thing as reality. Animals don't always hold still like targets. They might. But they might not.
Far more experienced, gray-haired hunters and archers than me have set their limits at 20 yards so that's the extreme limit for me. If I need to shoot further than that, then I'll grab a rifle.
I practice out to around 25 yards, maybe occasionally a bit farther. I'm typically consistent enough out to 20 for a vital hit. I've limited myself to 15 when hunting so far. I've literally passed broadside shots at 17 yards. I've shot three times at deer, and my longest was 13 yards.
My uncle held his boys to this standard,
10 arrows in a paper plate. He felt they should be able to do that at twenty yards.
QuoteOriginally posted by Sam McMichael:
A hunter's first shot should not ever be totally cold. I get on the stand and pull 20-25 times depending on temperature. Every hour or so I will pull a few more times, all in an effort to be at least "somewhat" ready. Granted, you northern guys may still be cold, even if you continually pull during the heart of winter. Fortunately, for me, our southern winters aren't usually that bad. Even when well warmed up, 20 yards is my maximum distance. I am working on 25 yards and am pretty consistent. But, I am not quite there yet.
:laughing:
So much for sitting still and quite .
It is absolutely wonderful to hear you guys talk about shooting a "paper plate"!
It drives me nuts when the level of accuracy is described by shooting a "pie plate". Pie plates went out decades ago.
Not quite...
http://www.ckfinc.com/portfolio-item/paprus-pie-plates/
I don't use pie plates either. I use 3D targets and I'm fortunate to be in a club that has 40 3D targets out on our course. I shoot every Sunday so I know what my effective range will be when be when hunting season starts.
What I found out over the years is once I start hunting and miss my time at the range my effective hunting range decreased. Last year I decided no matter what I would make sure I got some 3D shooting in during the week by either skipping a morning or afternoon hunt and my effective range didn't suffer.
QuoteOriginally posted by Red Beastmaster:
It is absolutely wonderful to hear you guys talk about shooting a "paper plate"!
It drives me nuts when the level of accuracy is described by shooting a "pie plate". Pie plates went out decades ago.
We could move on to ping pong balls. 10" pie plate, gallon milk jug, gold and inner red rings on a traditional target face. A deer's lungs and heart haven't changed much in 100,000 years. That should be the 100% goal no matter what measure of accuracy you use.
My favorite: kill a grey squirrel - you can kill a deer.
Effective range is situational to me.
A rut-crazed buck at 21 yards is in trouble....but a spookey doe that's on pins n needles at 15 yards is safe.
So many right and good post here.
I never really try to establish my very farthest range I could kill deer. I set up to see how close I can get or the closest effective range in a tree in that case. Normally,If deer aren't on top of me I don't shoot because I know at some point that will happen. The farthest deer I've ever shot was not quite 17 yards and I doubt I'll be taking one that far anytime in the future. I need that up close experience, that's what I enjoy the most.I put my efforts in learning how to close up the distance, not try to reach out farther. 12 yards is my most frequent shot it seems.
I'd have to go along with
Orion in his thoughts for the most part on this.
I'll add to Michael Arnettes comment about every shot at an animal is a risk...thats true, but there are also many things that increase that risk, that we can be aware of and can control by deciding when or if we should shoot. For instance I don't care who you are a 20 yard shot is more risky then a 12 yard shot. Shooting through small holes is more risky then a wide open clear shot in every case. So while all shots have a risk factor, deciding to take increasingly risky shots when patience is all that is needed to reduce risk, is a bit crazy.
Sam McMichael , I too shoot several rounds before I go even if it's dark out. I'll use a head lamp if I need. I also take several dry draws to loosen up. There is a bit of a chance to spook animals from it as graps suggested, but I normally know when animals are within a distance where I shouldn't move.
Graps does make a valid point. In the bitterness of winter, one can't remain totally still. However, it is easy to pull a bow back with only slight movement. Simply pull the string back and hold it for a few moments. you don't need to raise to a full shooting position just get a reasonable amount of tension on the string and hold. As shadowhunter says, we generally have a good idea if a deer is in our immediate area. There is always that certain degree of risk of spooking an animal, but that is just a part of hunting. The bottom line is that many factors affect effective range, and cold is a major determinant.
I feel that a hunter should consider his effective range at the distance he consistently hit a 6" group. Remember shooting an animal has a lot more variables like angle, movement, heart rate and so on.
QuoteOriginally posted by Shadowhnter:
So many right and good post here.
I never really try to establish my very farthest range I could kill deer. I set up to see how close I can get or the closest effective range in a tree in that case. Normally,If deer aren't on top of me I don't shoot because I know at some point that will happen. The farthest deer I've ever shot was not quite 17 yards and I doubt I'll be taking one that far anytime in the future. I need that up close experience, that's what I enjoy the most.I put my efforts in learning how to close up the distance, not try to reach out farther. 12 yards is my most frequent shot it seems.
I'd have to go along with
Orion in his thoughts for the most part on this.
I'll add to Michael Arnettes comment about every shot at an animal is a risk...thats true, but there are also many things that increase that risk, that we can be aware of and can control by deciding when or if we should shoot. For instance I don't care who you are a 20 yard shot is more risky then a 12 yard shot. Shooting through small holes is more risky then a wide open clear shot in every case. So while all shots have a risk factor, deciding to take increasingly risky shots when patience is all that is needed to reduce risk, is a bit crazy.
Sam McMichael , I too shoot several rounds before I go even if it's dark out. I'll use a head lamp if I need. I also take several dry draws to loosen up. There is a bit of a chance to spook animals from it as graps suggested, but I normally know when animals are within a distance where I shouldn't move.
X2, very well written and I hunt a lot of the same. I think a pie plate is to big of a target though, not good enough in my book. We should be able to shoot better then that more like a 6" group consistently to be hunting big game. IMO
Tracy
QuoteOriginally posted by Red Beastmaster:
It is absolutely wonderful to hear you guys talk about shooting a "paper plate"!
It drives me nuts when the level of accuracy is described by shooting a "pie plate". Pie plates went out decades ago.
Haha! My wife still asks me what a pie plate is. Old school habits are hard to break.
Good stuff here. As a fairly newcomer to trad archery, it's nice to see experienced archers stating their effective range within 25 yards. This is completely opposite of where I came from (wheelie bows). In those forums, they like to brag and exaggerate their "effective range".
While it is important to get all targeted up, I do it too, I shoot hundreds of arrows a day when it is less than 85 degrees, a hunting shot and a target shot have completely different mental things going on. I have a friend that does not shoot at targets, his arrows are blunts and broad heads, when one is conditioned to shoot at pesky ground squirrels, starlings, dandelions and whatever at ranges from 15 to 50 yards, a target is a real brain teaser and in some cases a group size means nothing. He has not missed a deer in years. I disagree when folks try to throw blanket standards at everybody. Some people are great hunters and others are good at competitive sports in social settings, like target archery.
Mine changes daily and with what I'm hunting. When I'm hunting muleys and elk and spend a good chunk of the day stumping I'll shot to 40 on deer and 50 yards on elk. If I'm hunting trails, saddles extra, from a stand/blind for whitetails 15 to 20 yards is about it.
How was your first shot? Your not likely to get 5-10 shots at a deer, you're going to get tired whether you want to admit it or not after a couple of shots! First shot cold and how I've been shooting lately is how I determine it and my confidence level! It's a fluid measure!
For me, my max. distance on whitetails in the mid-west is 15 yards. That said, however, my max. distance for western game, on animals the size of mulies and antelope, is 20 yards. On elk size game, my max. distance would be 25 yards.
I haven't hunted paper plates yet. I have days that i could call 30 yards good and ( many) days where 10 is it. If i get shook and my head isn't on straight i can miss even closer. I hunt to get the critters as close as i can....slam dunk on any shot i take. Can no longer chance otherwise. I don't have what i call an effective range.
The first time we take a deer target out to the trees for the year and take a 30 yard shot, most of the time we all shoot an inch or two over its back. It is odd how the eye of all of us seem to pick on that back horizontal line and shoot high. We could start up close, but we never do. For expanding my hunting range, I start out at point on and work in. In the spring i start out with just shooting for form at about ten yards. The first time i back out to the far corner, 25 yards, it seems like a mile, but when stump shooting 25 yards seems like spitting distance. My visual comfort zone is a variable, one that changes with how much longer range practice that I have been getting. Although one may never take a 40 yard shot at a deer, I believe it is good practice to shoot at a 40 yard deer target until one gets comfortable with it. After that, 25 yards won't have the same mental contradictions that it did before.
I heard an old story one time of a hunt test for some hunt unit or state or hunter education or something...cant remember details. part of the test was to go to range and shoot 5 arrows with 3 out of 5 having to be in the 10 ring at your effective range at a deer target. This was supposed to simulate your proficiency to hit the vitals with your arrow to pass the test and get your permission to hunt or your license...as I say I cant remember the full context. Anyhow all the youngsters and adults went out and some shot their compounds at 20 yds some at 40 yds and most were somewhere in between as all of them were able to put 3 out of 5 in the zone...some more but none put all 5 in there. THe course instructors stood and nodded approvingly. Then an older fella with a selfbow and some woodies was next and there were snickers as he toed the line at 20yds squinting and shaking his head nervously...then he squatted and slowly walked up to 8 yds and put all 5 arrows into the 10 ring. The instructors asked why he did that and did not shoot from at least 20yds or more like the compound shooters. He told them, "You told me to shoot from my effective range to put 5 arrows in kill zone...so I limited my shot distance to where I could not miss." He walked away and unstrung his bow...he passed. Whether this is true or not...I suspect NOT....there is a lesson there for all of us.
Some years back to gain access to an eastern Iowa city park area they had a shooting test. 25 yards at a paper target. A recurve shooter did not pass it. They also had a foam McKinsey deer target, he packed his arrows in tight behind the shoulder on that, but the city dude would not pass him because he did not pass the test on the paper target. I argued on his behalf, but it was pointless, so I shot my arrows into his precious paper target and told him to keep his tags.
Thanks, Turkhunter, for this post, as I am also very interested in this topic. And with respect to other more seasoned hunters who have posted great advice here, I hope you won't mind if I throw my two cents in here.
While I am new to traditional archery, I have hunted my entire life. When I hunted with a rifle I wanted to take the max distance shot I could. And when I hunted with a compound, I found that I also planned to shoot at my max effective range. Certainly,I had some success, but when last season ended, I came across a nice mature buck that I did not see the entire season. I set out cameras and quickly discovered that this deer, and a lot of other mature deer I did not know I had, never came out in the open to the areas I hunted with a rifle or a compound. I realized, that my hunting tactics were planned around the weapon I was carrying instead of the game I was actually hunting. I had to get into the thick stuff where they were and where a rifle and a compound are practically useless, at least in my hands. Sure, I could use my shotgun, but for a chance at deer like him where I live, you've got to be in the woods during archery season before the shooting starts and the deer get spooked. To achieve this goal, I determined that instinctive shooting with a traditional bow was my best chance at success.
In my scouting and preparations now, I'm not setting up stands and brush blinds for my max effective range -- I'm setting them up for close shots I can make from the best concealment where the animals will actually be. Fifteen and under is my rule now because the terrain dictates it. Sure, I'll probably get busted every time, but if I do manage to make a shot, I am confident it will be a killing shot. I'm practicing as I will be shooting in the field in hunting conditions. An even mix of quick shots and slow draws to anchor and holding for the right moment. I practice from 5-20 yards from my Waldrop Pacseat in a brush blind, up against trees, and behind trees, and from my stand. As an example, I'm hunting this weekend out of a downed live oak I cut a blind into that is downwind of a bait sight I have for hogs. My max shot is under 10 yards on that sight. The hogs have no way to get downwind of me and it will be at night, so I'm hoping I find success.
Anyway, I hope this helps you out a little in thinking about your upcoming season. For me, the draw of traditional archery is its effectiveness at close ranges and under hurried conditions. But there are a lot better archers and better hunters on here than me, so take that into account when you read this. Good luck this season!
I never understood the maximum range statements. If a deer is 15 a shot will be taken but 16 is out of the question? Maybe if that is the case, the confidence the archer has in their shot and their ability is very low and lower. I guess I would fail any "standardized" archery test, but I've put my share of game down quickly and humanely. My maximum range resides on a sliding scale, measured by what looks right. I have killed a deer at 40 yards and 14 too. I am confident to take a shot, near or far, it if looks just-right. Likewise, holding off and passing on a shot is easy if I don't feel its the right shot. If I didn't have that belief in myself I'd probably quit bowhunting, or at least regulated myself up to 9, but not 10 yards.
My effective range varies by what feels right at the moment. I've shot at some animals that were way out there by my standards and passed on others 10 yards out. Part of hunting is knowing what shots you can make and when to/not to take them. How an animal presents, how the woods look, how the lighting is, how in practice you are, what types of cover you have, shot angle, obstacles between you and the animal, what type of animal your hunting etc all have a huge effect on whether or not I take a shot.
I can't claim that I'm 100% game on for EVERY 10 yard shot or 100% against EVERY 50 yard shot on a deer sized animal. I can say that my typical shot distance is well under 20 yards and probably 60-70% of the shots I've taken on various game animals have happened at between 5-15 yards. I've shot much farther out than 20 though with success and passed on numerous shots under 15 yards that just didn't seem quite right.
My best advice for how to learn and determine what's right for you and your particular setup is to practice how you hunt. Shoot stumps at various ranges, angles, and situations in the woods with the same equipment you'll hunt with. Make it as lifelike as possible. Shoot through cover and windows, from various contortions of your body, sitting, kneeling, standing, leaning over, etc. When you scout take a bow and plink along the way. Learn your land, your weapon, your body, and how they all interact. Soon, you'll not only improve your shooting but develop a very quick sense for what kinds of shots are risky for you and what kinds of shots you consistently can drill. Only shoot at game animals in situations that inspire confidence.
Like the last two posts I get either a green or red light on when to take the shot.Although the longest shot I've taken on game was 27 yds I've also taken them at almost touching range. Its either a do or don't for me-distance is the lesser part of the question.
I don't think most bowhunters are honest with themselves when it comes to effective range. Most of us when shooting at a deer out of a tree stand are going to be pretty deadly at 15 yards but drop off in accuracy quite quickly even just out to 20 yards. I know there are guys who can consistently take deer with a recurve at 25, 30 yards and beyond but I believe they are very far and few between. On my best shooting year, I hunted in Namibia and took some animals at 30 yards but we are talking big animals that don't jump the string. I did however kill a warthog at 33 yards on video but I was cocky and shooting very well! The compound guys crossing over to hunting with a real bow often quickly learn that the challenge is going to be much greater than they thought. Watching deer walk by that they know they could easily kill with a compound but that they haven't a prayer with a real bow can be difficult. In the end, the ultra-short range required of a traditional Bowhunter will make you get very good at hanging stands in the exact right tree. For me since I am pretty much an average shot, I must focus on my strengths and that is my hunting ability....or at least I'd like to think so! My advice to a guy coming from a compound to a recurve or longbow who may be reading this is that you must accept the fact that you will not be as efficient as you were with a compound. Your buddies who shoot compounds will likely kill more deer than you. But when you do it the way it was originally intended when bow seasons were originally established, the satisfaction is unparalleled. Best of luck out there guys.
Wow! Excellent post jonsimoneau! I am coming from compound archery, and it can be discouraging knowing that 30 yards is a chip shot with the wheelie. I take ethics very seriously and hate to wound an animal. Therefore, I am learning to take it slow and practice often. I know it won't be an overnight thing.
jonwilson, I love guys like you. You get it. I'm not against compounds as I have used them as well but the satisfaction you will gain by hunting with a real bow is hard to describe. Welcome. Please consider looking into joining The Professional Bowhunter Society which is made up of the finest bowhunters on the planet not based on only successful harvests but mostly by attitude. These guys are as good as it gets in both hunting skill and attitude and there is much to learn from them. Email me at jonsimoneau@hotmail.com if I can help you on your new journey in any way and or look me up on bookface. I'm excited for you.
I could not have said it better than what Jon typed above, so I won't try!!!
I will add that I have helped several guys switching from wheels to Trad that just could not accept the limited range and amount of work it takes to get good enough to hunt with trad bows. They went back to their wheels, and will never experience that higher level of satisfaction that Jon describes in his posts above! It is not cut out for everyone, but for almost everyone who experiences the feeling of seeing an arrow they shot off a trad bow zip thru a critter, there is no turning back!!!!
Bisch
Can't wait for that feeling Bisch!
Jon Simoneau, I think I found you on bookface. I'll send over a request. Thanks man! I also posted a form question in the FORM forum if anybody is interested in giving feedback (Hope this is okay. Not trying to highjack this thread.)
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=008225
QuoteOriginally posted by Bisch:
I could not have said it better than what Jon typed above, so I won't try!!!
I will add that I have helped several guys switching from wheels to Trad that just could not accept the limited range and amount of work it takes to get good enough to hunt with trad bows. They went back to their wheels, and will never experience that higher level of satisfaction that Jon describes in his posts above! It is not cut out for everyone, but for almost everyone who experiences the feeling of seeing an arrow they shot off a trad bow zip thru a critter, there is no turning back!!!!
Bisch
This!
Since posting this subject originally I have done a lot more studying and practicing. First off I want to clear up the matter a bit. Im not interested in shooting at deer at long range, I am merely finding my effective range for pure confidence purposes. My goal is to get as close as possible for the shot, and knowing when to say no. That being said I got a suggestion from another shooter (maybe from another forum,I cant remember) for a way to test myself and I think it has helped me a lot. I shoot 10 rounds of 4 arrows each at a sheet of notebook paper turned sideways to approximate a deers vitals. Then I score my # of hits on the paper. First time I did it I shot at 5,20,10, and 15 yds in that order. I scored 95% hits out of 40 shots with a couple more that would have cut paper with a broadhead. Based on that I feel really confident out to 20yds. Today I did the same thing only at 10,25,15,and 20yds. I scored 88% hits on papaer again wit 3 more that would have cut paper with broadhead. So I feel pretty confident out to 25yds. Again I will obviously try to keep shots as close as possible but my consistency and confidence has grown. I want to thank everyone on this board for your help and support in making my comeback from injury happen sooner than I expected.
Since posting this subject originally I have done a lot more studying and practicing. First off I want to clear up the matter a bit. Im not interested in shooting at deer at long range, I am merely finding my effective range for pure confidence purposes. My goal is to get as close as possible for the shot, and knowing when to say no. That being said I got a suggestion from another shooter (maybe from another forum,I cant remember) for a way to test myself and I think it has helped me a lot. I shoot 10 rounds of 4 arrows each at a sheet of notebook paper turned sideways to approximate a deers vitals. Then I score my # of hits on the paper. First time I did it I shot at 5,20,10, and 15 yds in that order. I scored 95% hits out of 40 shots with a couple more that would have cut paper with a broadhead. Based on that I feel really confident out to 20yds. Today I did the same thing only at 10,25,15,and 20yds. I scored 88% hits on papaer again wit 3 more that would have cut paper with broadhead. So I feel pretty confident out to 25yds. Again I will obviously try to keep shots as close as possible but my consistency and confidence has grown. I want to thank everyone on this board for your help and support in making my comeback from injury happen sooner than I expected.
QuoteOriginally posted by Graps:
QuoteOriginally posted by Sam McMichael:
A hunter's first shot should not ever be totally cold. I get on the stand and pull 20-25 times depending on temperature. Every hour or so I will pull a few more times, all in an effort to be at least "somewhat" ready. Granted, you northern guys may still be cold, even if you continually pull during the heart of winter. Fortunately, for me, our southern winters aren't usually that bad. Even when well warmed up, 20 yards is my maximum distance. I am working on 25 yards and am pretty consistent. But, I am not quite there yet.
:laughing:
So much for sitting still and quite . [/b]
I draw often throughout a hunt
... guarantee you I don't leap to my feet and just start yanking the bow back... but I do make sure that there's no animals around and I draw the bow as if I'm shooting in a sneaky manner...
if I can get away with killing animals at 5 to 25 yards by moving to draw a bow I think I can get away with it when they're not around.
I'm more likely to do it when I'm not stalking and in cold weather and to this day it's never cost me an animal that I know of
^
This....