I have been faced with a conundrum when I recently bought new high performance bow. I waited for months for it to be deliverered and finally got it in the end of march. I loved the look of it and after the initial set up, shoot like laser beams. Very happy... BUT
I suddenly realized that my limbs which should have been foam core was actually wood. I sent a message to the manufacturer and got told that due to the heavier draw weight they made it wood. As I paid for a foam upgrade I got given a refund. I had also found a imperfection from the final spray/coating. They offered to fix it if I sent it back ($100 from Australia).
Shortly after this issue I found a fine crack in the top limb just under the limb bolt and another what seems to be a crack in the riser when the window cut out is. Once again I contacted the manufacturer and they said it was hard to see on the fotos I sent over but it could be a crack. I now paid the ($100 and shipped it back to US for them to have a look at it)
I know the bow has arrived in the US and I expect a call in this week. I assume that they will fix the issues and make a new bow or give me a refund as it's basically a new bow. However... here is my question.
I find myself question the durability of the bow and as I spend lots of my hunting time on big walk in hunts I cannot risk having a bow fail on me. I have lost the confidence in the bow.
How common is a bow failure like this? The bow was shot a few hundred times with a over 10 GPP arrow, braced within recommendations and looked after. I understand the wood is a natural material but still... never had issues like this before.
Needless to say I am gutted and the waste of time without my bow (had to borrow a hunting buddies bow for now).
Thoughts?
Bummer. Had a glue line pop on a riser between phenolic and wood, other than that, it's only failure I've had and I overdraw the crap out of everything with my 31" draw. Seems like some people have more issues than other. Don't know if it's bad luck, not using stringer etc..
This crack is in the wedge about a mm from the core. Just under the limb bolt.
Seems pretty common in some so called "preformance bows"
Mark
I worked with a prominent and respected bowyer a few years back on a custom low poundage (43#) TD. I had owned one of his bows in the past and it never had a problem. The new bow showed cracks around the limb bolts after a month or two. Sent the limbs back for replacement. The second pair cracked after a month also, sent them back. He thought maybe it was the clear glass so he made the new limbs with black glass. Now we are getting into the area of "yeah but that's not what I ordered in my custom bow". Those limbs also cracked in the same place, and it had been sitting in its case, limbs not even attached! Finally, both of us were exasperated so he made me a one piece bow with black glass. It didn't crack but it wasn't what I wanted in any way so I sold it. We never did figure it out--some bows are just lemons, is my guess. The cracks were above and below the limb bolts.
I can't say that I have ever had a bow failure in my 50 years of shooting stick bows. I did have a limb crack after the bow made a "military move" back in the early 70s.
That said, I have never had what I would call a "high performance" bow. I still have bows made in the 60s and 70s that are in great condition and shoot every bit as good as the HP bows. Bows like Wings, Bob Lee, Shakespeare, etc.
For sheer toughness and reliability for long hunts I would go with a well made ASL, or Hill style bow. They have narrow, thick limbs, with rounded edges that are not susceptible to stress raisers from dinged edges, or twisted limbs.
I have had two (purchased bows) break in the last year. Funny, but, i build my own as well and though they are not speed demons mine have (not yet anyways) never broke.
Go back to shooting a Silvertip, problem solved. LOL.
QuoteOriginally posted by huntryx:
I worked with a prominent and respected bowyer a few years back on a custom low poundage (43#) TD. I had owned one of his bows in the past and it never had a problem. The new bow showed cracks around the limb bolts after a month or two. Sent the limbs back for replacement. The second pair cracked after a month also, sent them back. He thought maybe it was the clear glass so he made the new limbs with black glass. Now we are getting into the area of "yeah but that's not what I ordered in my custom bow". Those limbs also cracked in the same place, and it had been sitting in its case, limbs not even attached! Finally, both of us were exasperated so he made me a one piece bow with black glass. It didn't crack but it wasn't what I wanted in any way so I sold it. We never did figure it out--some bows are just lemons, is my guess. The cracks were above and below the limb bolts.
Sounds like similar issues with cracks near the bolts. I have also borrowed another bow, same make with no issues alas only a lighter draw weight. I too feel like I didn't really get what I ordered as I wanted foam core but got maple. Then compounded with the issues that arose.
I've had a number of bow failures over the years. I did get flamed here several years back for posting on a thread about having 4 of the same bowyers longbows fail on me. Had a couple others give up also. Stuff happens
Seen/had a bunch of bows with vertical cracks around the limb bolt holes. Generally caused by over-tightening the limb bolts or moisture swelling the limb wedges and causing the cracks in the glass. I have never seen this type of crack cause any problems other than cosmetic and I wouldn't worry about them. The crack in the riser at the sight window I'd be way more concerned about.
Agree with yaderhey. Most cracks emanating from the limb bolt holes are caused by tightening the bolts too much. I often take the precaution of working some varnish into the through holes and limb placement holes in the limbs to prevent moisture from creating unequal expansion between the wood wedges and the glass.
Have been shooting TD custom recurves and hybrids for a long time (more than 25 years) and have never had a bow or limbs fail.
There has been a trend toward shorter bows lately, and long draw lengths can really stress those bows, increasing the likelihood of failure, IMO.
Yes, the limb bolts should only ever be finger snug, like 1/8 turn past when you feel them start to tighten down max.
Also, the "crack" in the riser may very well be a what is called a 'check' in the wood, perhaps due to inadequate seasoning, or changes in the moisture content post-finishing, certain woods are more prone to it than others like bocote, cocobolo, rosewood, and ebony. However this does not apply if the riser is Actionwood or similar synthetic.
I know which bowyer you're talking about, as I checked your prior posts, and they have a stellar reputation for customer service and good quality, so hopefully that continues and they can help you.
Get a widow. I got mine used about five years ago and in that time it has been dry fired twice (once by a man with a 30" draw). On top of that, it sat all night hung on a wall above a furnace (strung) at a canadian bear camp. It was so hot when I finally realized what happened that I had to grab it with a glove remove it from the heat. Unreal bows
Owned over 30 different bows over the last 35 years and only had one form a small crack, but that was after tens of thousends of arrows. Never had a issue with any of the others as far as failures.
Ive had 2 blow up. An original Paul Shafer 1pc, and a new set of Robertson limbs.
Had 2 limbs let go, top limb during draw. Scared the s**t out of me. First was original limb, second was the replacement. Done with super high performance limbs from that bowyer, there really pushing the envelope and they can get away from the bowyer.
What bowyer ? Just curious
QuoteOriginally posted by mark Willoughby:
What bowyer ? Just curious
I am choosing not to mention what bowyer at this time because I don't think it matters and. I am certain that they will do arrangements to sort this out. Personally with my confidence decreasing day by day I am hoping for a refund. I have another bow from the same bowyer but with a lot less draw weight. I am just baffled that a bow can have have multiple issues on both riser and limbs.
On another note, the limb bolts wasn't over tightened but the limb fit wasn't perfect and the bolts was located really close to the edge of the limb. Once again due to the draw weight and design.
I had a beautiful longbow which let go of the limb tip decorative lams. Then after I repaired it after asking the bowyer ( shipping to and fro would be more than a pair of limbs). Shortly thereafter the entire string groove split on a full draw. The string frayed but held and I did not get hurt. The bowyer stood by me and we have come to a level of friendship. But I am leaning more towards ilf bows where issues are generally known and limbs are easy to get.
I live in Australia and have had cracks in 3 custom bows from the USA. One was replaced by the bowyer who refused any offer to help pay postage, a nice bloke. The other 2 by the same bowyer was advised to super glue the risers up and that sh@t happens. No refund. $100 postage each way has me owning metal riser ilf.
Motty
QuoteOriginally posted by Motty:
I live in Australia and have had cracks in 3 custom bows from the USA. One was replaced by the bowyer who refused any offer to help pay postage, a nice bloke. The other 2 by the same bowyer was advised to super glue the risers up and that sh@t happens. No refund. $100 postage each way has me owning metal riser ilf.
Motty
Exactly!
They break pretty often. Exotic wood risers can crack. It's not a perfect material. A really nice looking cocobola Morrison I had split at the shelf/window. He made a new one imediatley. Years ago I got a custom Bears Paw from Montana that broke the limp tip off on the first shot. The bowyer said send it back. Then he said it never arrived and wouldn't answer the phone. Though my check to pay in full got there ok. I never got the money or the bow back.
I caused a bear to break one time. I sanded the riser a little and blam! It broke exactly where I sanded it! It split my head open. I had a new 59 remake that had a tiny splinter on the edge of the maple lam. Had to send it back for replacement. That was a really nice one too.
And a custom Black Widow cracked at the site window, but I kept shooting it until a new one arrived. It probably would have lasted forever with the crack in it. They replaced it free of charge with extra laminations in the riser. I broke a few self bows. It's a good idea to wear a football helmet for the first few shots. And when people tell you that you shouldn't put FF on pre FF bows. I witness someone ruin a 66 kodiak. BTW... I have always used 10-11-12 GPP, never used skinny strings. I can't recall ever having a limb break.
Tedd
I had a limb blow up at the shot. I honestly think the arrow nock failed and caused what was essentially a dryfires. I also had a piece of cocobolo check in a riser. Bowyer fixed it.
In almost 50 years and too many custom and production bows to mention, I've had two failures. Both top limbs. One Widow back in the early 80's that literally exploded. One RER a few years ago. Both were promptly replaced no questions asked.
I don't think it's that common, but when it does happen, you're very glad to have a bowyer that backs up his work and takes care of it.
I think the "percentage" of failures is small - I have had several different types of bows over the years and the only failure I had was my fault. I had a strung bear grizzly in a hot garage and the top limb let go.
That is not counting the self bow failures I have had during building - several of those! :)
Thank you for your replies.
It seems to me that these failures are more common than I thought. Surely these failures should be able to prevented with the right choice of wood, enough reinforcing of carbon or similar material.
I am disheartened by my failure and no matter how the bowyer will look after my case I will loose time and money. Not to speak of the loss of confidence.
I hope that this will be sorted out swiftly so I can back on a positive streak in my traditional path.
Cracks through the limb bolt holes are usually caused by moisture . The cracks may keep going and eventually work their way up the limb Ive seen cracks a foot long (not safe) . Overlaying is the only way to stop the crack from getting bigger and that may not even do it . Using a bushing in the bolt holes stops the problem to start with . The limb holes are usually coated with finish but as the handle and limbs bend the threads on the bolt wear off the finish and then moisture gets in and swells the wood and causes the crack, so if the bowyer uses a metal bushing epoxied into the bolt hole and thoroughly coats the pin hole those crack don't appear.
QuoteOriginally posted by AndreasLundin:
Thank you for your replies.
It seems to me that these failures are more common than I thought. Surely these failures should be able to prevented with the right choice of wood, enough reinforcing of carbon or similar material.
I am disheartened by my failure and no matter how the bowyer will look after my case I will loose time and money. Not to speak of the loss of confidence.
I hope that this will be sorted out swiftly so I can back on a positive streak in my traditional path.
I have been dealing with overseas vendors for almost all my hobbies - I had money lying with a custom rod maker for over 4 months without a reply. When I started sending several emails a day to the firms address I was directed to another gentleman who got my stuff out in the mail after around 6 months of wait. Even then I got the impression that the original owner was in some doldrums due to a hurricane and still came through. My bowyer also has been patient with a noob like me who is apt to change his mind.
Give the guy a chance, you never know what is his end of the story. We have enough negativity in the world today, one of the most important reasons we all went trad is nostalgia for the good old days!
I typically don't post on these, but with the limited amount of info, It kinda sounds like you're looking for problems after getting a different limb core. I'm not sure if that was his mix up, or an issue that was overlooked with an online order, or mail in? If it was done over the phone I'd say thats more on him.
To me a crack is a crack not a light coloration in a fine line under the finish. Its hard to point fingers, with all the crazy things I've seen people do to bows over the years . Look on the other page, a guy basically set his widow on fire.......
Regardless, I would say a refund shouldn't happen unless he did a switch on the core, after a phone conversation at the time of the order. It makes it a little more complicated, that you shot it for as long as you did.
After all that, I understand buying something and not being happy.
Double locate pins and oversize bolt hole that is well sealed eliminate cracking of glass. The cracks are usually caused by the stress when the bow is drawn . Even though we may not detect any flex its there. If we over size the bolt holes the glass is not stressed. It can be done by carefully filing the back and front of the bolt hole , not the sides , or by simply going one size up with the original drill hole. I also overlay both the top and bottom of the limb butts. My theory in bow building is to eliminate comebacks and dissatisfied customers.
Although this is more work initially it eliminates a lot of unhappy people and a lot of extra work in the long run. There are other things such as material selection and the use of phenolic I beams or super strong wood ibeams such as ironwood or purpleheart ect. These eliminate the majority of riser failures.
God bless, Steve
Bow Failures happen from time to time. Been around this stuff along time. I have worked in the archery business for years and and have seen many bow failures. It's all about how the boyer backs/warranties their products. some are great and others are not.....
QuoteOriginally posted by Sixby:
My theory in bow building is to eliminate comebacks and dissatisfied customers.
Although this is more work initially it eliminates a lot of unhappy people and a lot of extra work in the long run. There are other things such as material selection and the use of phenolic I beams or super strong wood ibeams such as ironwood or purpleheart ect. These eliminate the majority of riser failures.
God bless, Steve
A good business theory to have.
As others have said it's not the bow failing, these things happen, it's how your treated from then on that makes the differance. This highlights the really good companies to deal with.
Mark
QuoteOriginally posted by mark Willoughby:
What bowyer ? Just curious
PM sent
I've had one from a well known Bowyer break at the throat of the riser, but they did a great job of replacement . I've been shooting widows for past 20 years with no problems
In 53 years I've had several break on me. Black Widow, Bear t/d mag handle, Zebra longbow. Bighorn longbow, wolverine longbow, 2 sets of RER limbs for Bear t/d, hopefully no more.
Wozzer Randy that's a lot !!! I have only had one limb break they were black glass and it was a touch over a hundred degrees that day. I shouldn't have been shooting it!!
Steve Jr