It's human nature to think the hills over yonder are greener and just better than where yer feet are currently planted.
That can all too easily also happen with traditional bowhunting as well, with respects to tackle and shooting.
What are the true, basic essentials one needs in order to be on the righteous road to being a successful traditional bowhunter? Indeed, what does it even mean to be a "successful traditional bowhunter"?
Is it a light or heavy holding weight stick bow?
A fat or skinny bowstring of Dacron or HMPE?
A woody or carbon arrow that's 8gpp, or 10gpp, or 16gpp, with no FOC or a hefty FOC, and 5-1/2" full helical or 2" dart fletchings?
A single bevel, or double bevel, or tri-blade or quad blade broadhead that's at what realistic degree of lethality?
Then there's the shooting part. How many of us truly practice like we're actually hunting, and not target shooting?
And for that matter, how many of us actually know what takes place during a trad bow shot process?
In essence ... What matters most with traditional bowhunting tackle and stick bow shooting form, in order for you to be a successful traditional bowhunter? Do the successful bowhunters of nearly a century ago know less about tackle and shooting than we do today? Do we have better and more advanced traditional bowhunting tackle and shooting knowledge than those before us?
I sift through threads and posts here at Trad Gang, and I'm not sure all of us are on the same basic traditional bowhunting page.
Your thoughts and comments, fellow traditional bowhunters?
I think it goes beyond equipment. Other than a tuned bow and arrow combo and a sharp Broadhead so much of bow weight choice, style of bow, aiming or shooting style is about personal choice and consistency in the shot regardless of how its made. If you watch masters of the bare bow you see son common themes in shooting but then you also see so many variations that all accomplish the same goal and prove that there's more than one way to skin a cat! But as it applies to hunting, you also raise a good point about practicing as a target shooter vs as a hunter. Standing upright at known distances in the yard and shooting I much different than from a treestand or in a ghillie suit. Shooting so many shots in a session and ignoring the bad ones isn't the same as sitting in the cold for hours and getting one shot at an animal. I think our predecessors made up for a lot of technical deficiencies with woodcraft. I know guys who aren't the greatest shots, but make up for it by being real good at predicting animal behavior and intercepting game at CLOSE distances.
I believe there to be many..... I will call them "levels of dedication" to traditional archery. There are those who are simplistic and are in love with the "romance" of trad gear. There are also those simply looking for a new way to challenge themselves. All of the levels are joined by the use of basic stick and string archery equipment.
There is a full spectrum of levels that fall in and around those I mentioned. I believe the biggest factor that determines each persons place in the spectrum is their own personal balance between success and romance.
That is why we see so many discussions on bow types and equipment. To some, success,whether it be hunting or 3D or whatever, ranks higher. While to others, the romance ranks higher.
Another way of looking at it is to compare trad gear to automobiles. There are a lot of different varieties out there. Most were created with a specific purpose in mind. And some are fancier than others. But all serve the same purpose of getting you from point A to point B.
Interesting points, Rob. I have ILF bows, one of which has a magnetic flipper rest, plunger and heavy weights added to the riser for balance. I also have a wood longbow and wood recurve. I really enjoy tinkering with tuning and bow setup. That said, it's totally unnecessary from a hunting standpoint. In fact, when I shoot my wood bows with wood arrows, I enjoy the simplicity of design and function. From a hunting perspective, my personal goal is to shoot deer size animals within 15 yards. That said, all my practice shooting spots helps to develop solid form. Then, shooting 3-d tournaments nearly every weekend helps to translate that form into more realistic hunting scenarios. Although 3-d events, or perhaps stump shooting, aren't exactly equal to hunting scenarios, it's the closest thing without actually hunting. What really matters from a traditional bowhunting essence standpoint, IMO, is a well tuned bow and arrow combo. As far as what kind of bows, arrows, shooting styles..., that is just personal choice.
As far as archery knowledge, I believe today we are more educated on the physics of shooting a bow and arrow. There were likely some misunderstandings of the physics in earlier times before slow motion video confirmed theories of physics in a visual way.
In terms of all our individuals trad archery bowhunting journeys, there are many of us who enjoy time afield without a realistic care if an animal is harvested. The harvest is just a big bonus to the experience. I tend to fall into that category. There are others who are just flat out deadly predators with trad gear, and thats great too.
I am not a successful traditional bowhunter, yet - only a novice traditional archer. So, speaking only in terms of traditional archery, and speaking only of my personal experience, being aware of / in tune with my equipment has been very important.
I started traditional archery before I knew of TradGang, or any other website source. I am a reluctant technology user. So, I started as I did years ago, by trial-and-error experimentation. And while I was all over the place in terms of equipment and practices, it did allow me to learn & become very familiar with my equipment. So as I found other resources and, began educating myself, I was able to "reverse engineer" a lot of what I was doing, to determine where some of issues may be off track. In some cases, I was way off - in others, I was much closer than I would have expected. That really helped me, and my learning process.
I read once that Bobby Jones, perhaps the preiminent golfer in American history, did not have a matched set of golf clubs - an apparent hodge-podge of various makes, that would resemble a thrift-store collection. However, at some point after his retirement or perhaps his passing, someone analyzed his chosen set. And they found that each club was nearly identical in terms of shaft stiffness, swing weight, flex point, etc. He did that through "feel" and practice. Amazing.
That is what I would like/aspire to do. But I have the luxury of technology to help me.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rough Run:
He did that through "feel" and practice. Amazing.
The golfer described above did not find success on the driving range alone but by skillfully navagating the tight drives, sand traps, wet greens and variable winds.
Basically, the guy figured it out, did what works for him.
The above post by Rough Run takes me to a fork in the river.....do I continue to develop accuracy - shoot targets at known distances on level, clear shooting lanes -or- do I want to hunt?
I believe many trad archers never, completely dedicate themselves to a necessary balance that leads to a successful hunt.
Ever wonder how well matched Native American arrows were. They lived it can't imagine the level of woodsmanship they achieved. I don't claim to be an expert but if I limit range and keep the wind in my face I feel like I have a legitimate chance of success. Either way the simple common sense approach leaves me with the satisfaction of knowing I had a real hunt. The adventure and escape from modern life is why I do it anyway. It's like an itch I have to scratch.
Archery/bowhunting is ageless. And the cool thing is that it's whatever you want it to be. Nobody sets the rules.
Quote
In essence ... What matters most with traditional bowhunting tackle and stick bow shooting form, in order for you to be a successful traditional bowhunter? Do the successful bowhunters of nearly a century ago know less about tackle and shooting than we do today? Do we have better and more advanced traditional bowhunting tackle and shooting knowledge than those before us?
I sift through threads and posts here at Trad Gang, and I'm not sure all of us are on the same basic traditional bowhunting page.
Your thoughts and comments, fellow traditional bowhunters? [/QB]
The first thought I have is...
Why do we all need to be on the same page, and more importantly, should we be? Man has been striving to improve every aspect of his life from time immemorial. Bow hunting is no different.
One of the most respected and loved traditional archery and bow hunting icons of the last century was probably the best example of someone who was always striving for improvement. Whether it was materials, designs, methods or manufacturing, he was never content to stay in the past.
Where would we all be today if Fred Bear and Nels Grumley had stayed on the same page?
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Archery/bowhunting is ageless. And the cool thing is that it's whatever you want it to be. Nobody sets the rules.
Love it!!
QuoteOriginally posted by Tooner:
Quote...
Why do we all need to be on the same page, and more importantly, should we be?
... [/b]
My statement of "I sift through threads and posts here at Trad Gang, and I'm not sure all of us are on the same basic traditional bowhunting page." was meant in the vein of folks going off on a don quixote quest with both tackle and form that's needless, if not at times counter-productive to traditional bowhunting success.
QuoteOriginally posted by Tony Van Dort:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rough Run:
He did that through "feel" and practice. Amazing.
The golfer described above did not find success on the driving range alone but by skillfully navagating the tight drives, sand traps, wet greens and variable winds.
The above post by Rough Run takes me to a fork in the river.....do I continue to develop accuracy - shoot targets at known distances on level, clear shooting lanes -or- do I want to hunt?
I believe many trad archers never, completely dedicate themselves to a necessary balance that leads to a successful hunt. [/b]
While I did not mean to imply that there is a fork in the river, I do agree that some, maybe many, do not dedicate to that necessary balance, and perhaps perceive a fork. I was just focusing on one aspect of traditional archery that has been important to me in navigating the waters. In my mind and in my approach, archery and hunting are very much linked, like the sides of a coin rather than a fork in the road. The two are not mutually exclusive, unless the individual chooses that approach. I apologize if I was vague or misleading, that was not my intent.
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Archery/bowhunting is ageless. And the cool thing is that it's whatever you want it to be. Nobody sets the rules.
X2 on this. Couldn't be stated any better in my opinion.
I agree with Charlie. However, Rob I think what you are getting at has more to do with actual traditional bow hunting experience than traditional archery. Traditional archery can be whatever anyone wants it to be. Traditional bow hunting success has much more to do with a what actually works in the field. For myself, traditional bow hunting success only came after I learned how to successfully tune my setup and developed consistent enough form to have confidence in my ability to ethically harvest game at reasonable ranges. 90% of the stuff most people stress over has very little to do with bow hunting success. Give me a well tuned setup with a sharp coc broad head of any design, weight, foc etc and I am confident I can kill deer with it. That is the definition of common sense bow hunting.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
My statement of "I sift through threads and posts here at Trad Gang, and I'm not sure all of us are on the same basic traditional bowhunting page." was meant in the vein of folks going off on a don quixote quest with both tackle and form that's needless, if not at times counter-productive to traditional bowhunting success.
I understood what you were saying, and my point was directly along those lines.
Nels Grumley thought that the direction Fred Bear wanted to go was needless and counter-productive and as we all know...the rest is history.
In my opinion, Charlie Lamb has it exactly right. We already are on the same page, and that page says that there aren't any rules other than the ones we set for ourselves.
Jeff (Rough Run)
Your post was clear and appropriate. I really liked the golfer anaolgy. It took me back to the early 70s. That was my point of transition just shooting arras to putting meat on the table....still learning brother...
Yes, without a doubt and as always, Charlie is spot on ...
"Archery/bowhunting is ageless. And the cool thing is that it's whatever you want it to be. Nobody sets the rules."
Where I'm coming from is back to the basics, the real basics that most of us, Charlie included, started out with, back when. What did it take then to become a successful bowhunter? How does that apply to the here and now? Think on that a bit.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
[qb] Yes, without a doubt and as always, Charlie is spot on ...
"Archery/bowhunting is ageless. And the cool thing is that it's whatever you want it to be. Nobody sets the rules."
There it is in a nutshell folks! Should be a top priority every here at TradGang.
:campfire:
Charlie hit the nail on the head!
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
Where I'm coming from is back to the basics, the real basics that most of us, Charlie included, started out with, back when. What did it take then to become a successful bowhunter? How does that apply to the here and now? Think on that a bit.
"Basics" is a relative term and it's never static. What was considered the basics for Charlie's era was likely more advanced than the era that preceded it. What is considered the basics for today is more advanced than what it was when Charlie started. Even what is considered a successful bow hunter has changed. Time marches on.
Is getting back to basics concerned with over analyzing tackle?
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Archery/bowhunting is ageless. And the cool thing is that it's whatever you want it to be. Nobody sets the rules.
Oh so true.
Rob, unless your harvesting the wood and scratching out a bow with hand tools, fashioning wood arrows with what is in your area, gathering feathers and napping points your are making compromises. How far you take it away from the basics is a personal choice. The essence of traditional archery is not just equipment to me. :campfire:
QuoteOriginally posted by Tooner:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
Where I'm coming from is back to the basics, the real basics that most of us, Charlie included, started out with, back when. What did it take then to become a successful bowhunter? How does that apply to the here and now? Think on that a bit.
"Basics" is a relative term and it's never static. What was considered the basics for Charlie's era was likely more advanced than the era that preceded it. What is considered the basics for today is more advanced than what it was when Charlie started. Even what is considered a successful bow hunter has changed. Time marches on. [/b]
I agree with Tooner here. Every "generation" of trad bowhunter has tried to use the best that generation has to offer. Some go back to self-bows and making your own bow out of a stick with a sinew string is probably as "basic" as it gets. I started with a Black Widow recurve and I wish I had it back. I've gone through long bows and different recurves and I recently picked up an ILF bow that I like a lot. Right now, that ILF is my basic trad bow.
QuoteWhat are the true, basic essentials one needs in order to be on the righteous road to being a successful traditional bowhunter? Indeed, what does it even mean to be a "successful traditional bowhunter"?
What are the true, basic essentials one needs in order to succeed in anything martial related art? I consider archery a martial art - you can use it to compete in a harmless way, but its main reason to exist was, is and will be to kill something. To become competent and successful in it you need these things in my opinion:
- to have the call for it in you (to be attracted by it).
- to have someone or something to guide you with the fundamentals
- to always want to be today better than yesterday and tomorrow better than today
- to find your way of shooting - nothing beats what comes natural to you once the fundamentals are ingrained in you
- be responsible - shoot just what you can kill.
- last but not the least: love and respect life.
I would like to chime in here. I am addicted to this site, I got to be cause I am constantly reading posts through out most days. I have gotten some useful information from here,but I have not changed the way I bow hunt due to reading posts or great hunting stories. I shoot a simple set up and I am confident in my shooting abilities at my hunting ranges. I personally don't get into all the shooting styles, I just use the one that seems to work for me. I love the SIMPLICITY of trad hunting why complicate it.
Fundamentals/Basics... the method in which you sharpen a Broadhead may change but, the fact that you should use a sharp Broadhead remains so.
Just one of countless examples of fundamentals/basics. These types of fundamentals make sure the foundation remains solid and it doesn't become watered down slideing off into quicksand.
Whatever gives you the confidence to make a killing shot and not wound a game animal with your traditional bow is what I am for. For some that may include what some of us would consider over analyzing all of the things mentioned in the opening query. I must admit that I have picked up some ideas from that crowd that have helped me. An example being that I shot too stiff of arrows for 35 years until I experimented with tuning this past year (brought about by some carbon arrow tuning threads posted on here). I find myself somewhere in the middle I guess. I shoot a 42 year old vintage Bear recurve with a dacron string (old school) and perfectly tuned modern carbon arrows (new school). The deep hook and double anchor is another thing that I incorporated this past year from this site. These two things have helped me to shoot better. At the end of the day that is all that matters to me. Keep it simple and keep it fun.
QuoteOriginally posted by katman:
Rob, unless your harvesting the wood and scratching out a bow with hand tools, fashioning wood arrows with what is in your area, gathering feathers and napping points your are making compromises. How far you take it away from the basics is a personal choice. The essence of traditional archery is not just equipment to me. :campfire:
none of the above is what i'm alluding to, not even close. it's in the simple example that terry just posted, but in this fast food day and age, goes way beyond that ....
And as a frequent reminder Tradgang is not about traditional archery ....it's about traditional bowhunting.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
And as a frequent reminder Tradgang is not about traditional archery ....it's about traditional bowhunting.
Now I'm confused - I understand being able to separate bowhunting from archery. But how do you separate traditional archery from traditional bowhunting?
It's just a stick and string and you got to figure it out on your own with what you have to work with, the IDN's did..
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
Is getting back to basics concerned with over analyzing tackle?
In my opinion, yes. Every generation of hunters overanalyzed their tackle. That is how incremental improvements have been made over decades and centuries.
There is nothing more "basic" than trying to improve. It's in our DNA.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
Yes, without a doubt and as always, Charlie is spot on ...
"Archery/bowhunting is ageless. And the cool thing is that it's whatever you want it to be. Nobody sets the rules."
Where I'm coming from is back to the basics, the real basics that most of us, Charlie included, started out with, back when. What did it take then to become a successful bowhunter? How does that apply to the here and now? Think on that a bit.
Not quite long ago there was one rule : Do what you have to do to feed your family using a bow and arrow. That was the definition of a successful bowhunter in my opinion.
Today things are blurry. There is not that urgency from the past for most of bowhunters. That's why, maybe, there are as many opinions as people expressing them regarding what a "successful bowhunter" is and how he becomes that. Shooting the bow with a sharp broadhead is one of the things that defines a successful bowhunter - but is not the entire story behind. Learning to track the animal, getting close to it and knowing when to shot and when not are as important as sticking an arrow in it.
A sharp broadhead is what kills an animal. Everything else is just a delivery system. Properly tuning your setup and developing good form help to ensure accurate delivery, but there are quite a few methods of doing those things that all yield good results.
My dad has been a bowhunter since I was a small child, but has always been a compound guy. When he started out, he got some help and guidance from an older guy that had hunted with both recurves and compounds. His first piece of advice was this: "the key to bowhunting is getting them close". In spite of what his equipment is "capable" of, my dad has limited over 90% of his shots to 15 yards or less. He passed that advice on to me, and in all the years that I hunted with a compound, I only shot once at an animal over 15 yards. When I took up trad, that philosophy fit perfectly with this style of hunting.
To answer the original post, in my opinion, the most important things to being a traditional bowhunter are getting them close, and having a good quality sharp broadhead that you can deliver accurately within that close range. .
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
QuoteOriginally posted by katman:
Rob, unless your harvesting the wood and scratching out a bow with hand tools, fashioning wood arrows with what is in your area, gathering feathers and napping points your are making compromises. How far you take it away from the basics is a personal choice. The essence of traditional archery is not just equipment to me. :campfire:
none of the above is what i'm alluding to, not even close. it's in the simple example that terry just posted, but in this fast food day and age, goes way beyond that .... [/b]
I apologize Rob for misinterpreting your comment. So should we limit our conversations on trad gang to the fundamentals only?
I was blessed to be born into archery. My dad owned an archery shop back in the 50's and 60's called Bear Archery of Muskegon. I worked there as a young kid learning how to fletch arrows and make strings. We got Bear arrows in a box by the gross and Bear razorheads in boxes by the gross. When hunting season came we were cutting arrows and gluing heads on them from the time we opened until the time we closed . It was pretty basic back then. I think the modern traditional archer is over thinking the sport with too many "what ifs". Almost everything has changed from what the bows are made out of, arrows are made of and the many types of string making materials.
I just keep shooting my 69 Bear Kodiak Hunter with my B-50 string and my cedar arrows tipped with Black diamonds and just plug along.
AND then my entry into the primitive archery world happened. There is no greater experience than hunting with a self bow, arrow shaft and stone point that you made using feathers from a turkey that you harvested. Harvesting game is secondary to me.
Think of "common sense traditional bowhunting" as just that - getting back to the fundamentals, the roots, in terms of both tackle and shooting.
I know, I hear some of ya ... I'm dancing around what I'd really like to post .... :)
The fundamentals of traditional bowhunting go Way Beyond sharpening a Broadhead ... there's a multitude of cornerstones and those cornerstones are Paramount to a solid foundation ....
There's a lot more than just sharpening a broadhead and getting them close.
No Kat.... we're just making sure we don't run off and leave the fundamentals and the foundation remains sure and not promote fake news.
And I some of y'all do not understand it or haven't seen it but Rob and I are here all the time....
So we see a lot more than most... we see patterns, trends and all sorts of people trying to beat the system cracking... attempts at cracking into database, advertising, Schilling, behind-the-scenes third-party Shilling, you name it we deal with it.....all to bring you the best and the truth in bowhunting.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
Think of "common sense traditional bowhunting" as just that - getting back to the fundamentals, the roots, in terms of both tackle and shooting.
I know, I hear some of ya ... I'm dancing around what I'd really like to post .... :)
I get what you are saying, I just don't agree that you can ever define the "roots." To Nels Grumley, Fred Bear crossed the line...yet many hold Fred Bear up as the ultimate traditional bowhunting icon. Fred Bear WAS the obsessive radical of his time.
Every era has had it's minimalists as well as those that obsessed about every little detail. Things we consider basic, were at one time thought to be radical and obsessive. Think about the dude that first thought about matching arrow spines to draw weight. Or how about the guy that first thought of tapering arrow shafts, attaching chunks of animal fur to their strings in order to quiet them down, making arrows out of metal tubes or attaching a quiver to their bows.
The point is, obsession to details IS traditional, it IS as basic and fundamental as anything else we do...it's human nature.
QuoteOriginally posted by Tooner:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
Think of "common sense traditional bowhunting" as just that - getting back to the fundamentals, the roots, in terms of both tackle and shooting.
I know, I hear some of ya ... I'm dancing around what I'd really like to post .... :)
I get what you are saying, I just don't agree that you can ever define the "roots." To Nels Grumley, Fred Bear crossed the line...yet many hold Fred Bear up as the ultimate traditional bowhunting icon. Fred Bear WAS the obsessive radical of his time.
Every era has had it's minimalists as well as those that obsessed about every little detail. Things we consider basic, were at one time thought to be radical and obsessive. Think about the dude that first thought about matching arrow spines to draw weight. Or how about the guy that first thought of tapering arrow shafts, attaching chunks of animal fur to their strings in order to quiet them down, making arrows out of metal tubes or attaching a quiver to their bows.
The point is, obsession to details IS traditional, it IS as basic and fundamental as anything else we do...it's human nature. [/b]
Traditional is "doing what was demonstrated through experiments/history that works". The obsession for detail comes just if you understood that part with "what works" why it works and how can I make it better for me.
"Archery/bowhunting is ageless. And the cool thing is that it's whatever you want it to be. Nobody sets the rules."
Charlie's post is spot on and always a given.
Beyond that, there may be pitfalls to overcome for any trad bowhunter, and so there are more than a few examples of approaching trad bowhunting with a common sense viewpoint. There are probably many dozens of pitfalls to negotiate.
I love hunting (and eating!) feral hogs. When I am very fortunate to pursue the pigs, the hunt venue is almost always in the southeast woods and swamps. My safe shooting distance these dayze is 15 yards and a 20 yard shot might be a stretch for me - lots depends also on the time of year, weather, terrain ... and how physically fit I happen to be at the moment. I take these items seriously into account. No matter what the bow holding weight or type of bowstring or arrow weight/spine or FOC or broadhead type and sharpness, lemme think on the fletchings. What do I want that arrow to do when it departs past the riser? Fly straight. Common sense tells me that for that arrow to get itself quickly on the true path of death to that hog it needs good steerage, and that means big feather fletchings and a goodly helical.
That's where I'm coming from with "traditional bowhunting common sense".
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
Common sense tells me that for that arrow to get itself quickly on the true path of death to that hog it needs good steerage, and that means big feather fletchings and a goodly helical.
That's where I'm coming from with "traditional bowhunting common sense".
Exactly. Except that common sense for you required obsession to minute details for someone else along the way...maybe even yourself.
The very notion that mounting feathers on a shaft in such a way that they would cause the arrow to spin rapidly in flight would increase accuracy was at one time a radical, obsessive thought.
Someone's obsession today might be someone else's common sense 50 years from now.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
"Archery/bowhunting is ageless. And the cool thing is that it's whatever you want it to be. Nobody sets the rules."
Charlie's post is spot on and always a given.
No it is not IMO. Common sense in hunting forms a set of rules that you cant dismiss. Common sense tells you to not stay in plain view when you hunt dangerous animals but it is a video here showing exactly the opposite. Common sense in any activity with weapons implies education first about the tools you use and about the target. It's something you acquire by education, is not in you.
It's not minutiae that dictates tackle, it's a common sense approach.
There are times for specific types of tackle.
Knowing what's best for your trad bowhunting is all that matters.
Exercising freedom of choice doesn't always mean making the better choice.
This applies not only to tackle, but to how we practice and prepare for the hunt ... range practice or roving, simulated location and weather or basement shooting, casual shooting attire or what's used for the hunt?
Common sense says to not strung your bow the other way around then. Way before straight arrow flight and helical big feathers if we go THAT basic. What "common sense" means for an experienced guy is not the same for a novice. It's a "common sense" acquired by education.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
It's not minutiae that dictates tackle, it's a common sense approach.
There are times for specific types of tackle.
Knowing what's best for your trad bowhunting is all that matters.
Exercising freedom of choice doesn't always mean making the better choice.
It was minutiae at some point along the way. How do you think the things we call "common sense" were discovered and subsequently determined by the individual to be "what's best?"
I think I'm going to start a new Forum ..
Reinventing the wheel :biglaugh:
Seriously, let's make the wheel the best we can... and make improvements to the wheel so its performance is better....
But, let's don't forget about the wheel.
.. the foundation.
Maybe a definition for "Common sense" will make things clearer.
Based on accepted definition:
"Common sense = a basic ability to perceive, understand and judge things that are shared by nearly all people and can reasonably be expected of nearly all people without need for debate""
nothing related to bow hunting WITHOUT BEING TAUGHT/TOLD at one point in your life is "common sense". "Traditional" is the carrier of the EDUCATED "common sense" passed down from generation to generation. And these are the fundamentals that are disregarded too often and yes, they have rules. If you respect them, you will be an accomplished bow hunter. If not, not.
Back on track!
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
"What are the true, basic essentials one needs in order to be on the righteous road to being a successful traditional bowhunter?"
.........
In essence ... What matters most with traditional bowhunting tackle and stick bow shooting form, in order for you to be a successful traditional bowhunter?
Correct me if I'm wrong here. I think what is being alluded to is that there are certain fundamentals to trad bow hunting/shooting. Those fundamentals either should not or cannot be violated if you want to be successful.
My father was a basketball coach. He always felt the fundamentals (ball handling skills, blocking out, shooting form, rebounding, etc...) were crucial to success. I agree. I'm a dentist and I've taught other dentists for years. There are certain fundamentals that cannot be improved upon.
Same goes for certain fundamentals within trad bow hunting. I agree with some here that those fundamentals may be minutia at some point. They may be obsessed about and some maybe should be obsessed about. Some things, that even I discussed earlier, may not be fundamentals and we constantly look to improve them. e.g. sharp broadheads are a fundamental. How you get them sharp is not. What metal they are made of, what shape, etc... is not a fundamental.
I know we see discussions on sights vs. no sights, grip styles, string components, etc... Much of this is preference over fundamental. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.
Most "successful traditional bowhunters" probably spend more time working on woodsmanship skills than tuning arrows and fretting about whether or not they are more "traditional" than the next guy, just saying
Agree, and if more people would concentrate on the basics and sound foundation and then the Paramount of accuracy.... which means actually practicing shooting skills... than all this psycho paralysis of analysis of all this 'static' they would be more successful.
If you think that the fundamentals/basics are hoopla, a myth, or worthless...see Pete Maravich about ball handling skills.....
The man was so far INSIDE the Box of FUNDAMENTALS that he expanded the Box previously known. His FUNDAMENTALS took him OUTSIDE the box in the field of play....
Too bad many can't grasp that.
Never thought I would read a reference to "Pistol Pete" on an archery forum. Good one
There needs to be a sense of adventure in bowhunting. It is not sport if there are no limits on developments. It was marvelous, back in the 60s when a 58" recurve with a set of arrows that flew good and one could even carry the arrows on the bow, but that was all that was needed to be a bowhunter. Folks talked about the different arrows a lot, and different broadheads, but they all worked, so there was not much to fight about. Unless of course you did something way different like put arrows on your back and killed animals with a wood stick, then came the arguments and criticisms. Who was it that said, "Archers are like a bunch of chickens. If one has one thing different, the others will peck him to death." The October morning sun feels the same now as it did in 1964, the first year that I went deer hunting.
Jon...
Pete is one of many I could have commented on....Kelly Slater is another...as is Howard Hill.
When you become a student of the game of the best of the best in many fields you will find they all have the same similarities.... one hell of a foundation and relentless application.
QuoteOriginally posted by TRAP:
Most "successful traditional bowhunters" probably spend more time working on woodsmanship skills than tuning arrows and fretting about whether or not they are more "traditional" than the next guy, just saying
Yes...!
I think you are tracking with the OP.
When I joined TradGang many years ago, I remember reading about different hunting trips. We all just hunted with a recurve or a longbow. We talked and learned about different ways to hunt, wind in our face, stalking skills, reading the terrain, looking for signs... We shared our thoughts and what we learned afield, with our fellow Trad bowhunters so we could be more successful in the field. Times have changed I get that, equipment has changed in all aspects. True Hunters will always be successful no matter what bow they have in their hand. Learn from them, listen when they share, in the end its all about Trad bowhunting
Well as of late I certainly havent been successful in the "meat" aspect of trad bow "hunting!" all I been doing is bow "hiking".
Never been philosophical though? for me I just liek the trad bow? get as close as I can, make best shot I can. Shoot an honest 4 times a week; but I do try and step out and shoot at least two arrows a day. A trad bow isnt a wheel bow! you HAVE to keep shooting year round or your just not there. wheel bow you can pick up off the shelf and be accurate within 5 arrows???
trad bow? not so much. It requires a lot more of you. Folks say it is more simple??? well from the tech aspect yes? from the discipline aspect it is alot harder.
J
Got to agree with Desertdude on his post. But it seems people have problems with the listening and learning part. I miss those old days as well, it irritates me a little and amuses me like watching a cheap movie when i go to a Traditional bow HUNTING sites and there filled with nothing but Traditional Archery/shooting/tech.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
The fundamentals of traditional bowhunting go Way Beyond sharpening a Broadhead ... there's a multitude of cornerstones and those cornerstones are Paramount to a solid foundation ....
There's a lot more than just sharpening a broadhead and getting them close.
No Kat.... we're just making sure we don't run off and leave the fundamentals and the foundation remains sure and not promote fake news.
And I some of y'all do not understand it or haven't seen it but Rob and I are here all the time....
So we see a lot more than most... we see patterns, trends and all sorts of people trying to beat the system cracking... attempts at cracking into database, advertising, Schilling, behind-the-scenes third-party Shilling, you name it we deal with it.....all to bring you the best and the truth in bowhunting.
To be fair, I said a sharp broadhead, getting them close, and delivering the broadhead accurately.
It looked to me like a lot of the discussion was about whether new techniques and technologies (tuning, form coaching/developing, high tech equipment, etc.) were getting to complicated, and also if old techniques and technologies were too simple.
I may have misunderstood some of those comments, but I didn't intend to suggest that the fundamentals weren't important. They are paramount to the accurate delivery system for the broadhead. I was just meaning that whether you subscribe to the tuning and practice methods of Saxton Pope and Ishi, to a more modern Olympic Archery style approach, or to something in between, it doesn't matter. What matters is that you use your chosen method to deliver that broadhead right where it needs to be when that broadside 13 yard shot presents itself.
I get what you are saying about all the bs, shills, etc. that you guys have to sort through on here. I don't envy you that job a bit. Thanks, :thumbsup:
Let's not forget that things that are considered "fundamental" today like certain aspects of tuning, shooting form, etc., weren't even thought of a hundred years ago.
That can only mean that the "fundamentals" are fluid based on new information, and yes...someone's obsession to minutia.
Even something as fundamental as archer's paradox (or "toxophilist's paradox" as it was originally called) wasn't even defined until 1913 by E.J. Rendtroff.
In my opinion the foundation for the (bow) hunter is based on other things than tuning tools, scientific research and formal shooting forms. Having both eyes on the target, an arrow (weapon) somewhere underneath the dominant eye - aligned with the target - and being in equilibrium while shooting are the main elements that forced the ancient hunter to adapt and develop what we call now "shooting form". The research was done long time ago and the product was already proved reliable. We are theorizing it now.
Terry, in a sense, every trad generation reinvents the wheel, at least to some degree. They take what they see or hear about the previous generation (us), and add in the tidbits of info they have picked up on their own. I know you too have heard of all these "brand new ideas" that some guy puts forth, you know that same technique you and I heard about so many years ago before these new guys could even spell bow and arrow. This is a good thing, because it shows that new people tend to eventually work their way into tried and true things that work. It is also in sync with Rob's notion of common sense archery. We all wade through a sea of crap before we get back to basics in life that actually work, not just in archery, either. Eventually, we get into a routine that is more simple, and these basic concepts once again become the staple of archery in the traditional sense. True, some of the new stuff turns out to prove useful, and it will eventually become "traditional" also. But to me, one of the most basic premises of traditional archery is the notion of a willingness to do the work necessary to develop hunting skills and the appreciation of the traditions behind those skills. Remember, a lot of the unending tinkering and fiddling with gadgetry comes from guys who grew up in the world of the compound bow and simply have not yet realized that much of the doodads they are used to using simply are not necessary. They are not undermining the simplicity of trad, rather they are still undergoing the journey. All is well in the world of trad archery.
Good thoughts Sam.
Sometimes people just rediscover what was already known, and whether we want to admit it or not, sometimes people really do reinvent the wheel...or at least put a whole new spin on it.
I keep going back to Fred Bear and Nels Grumley.
Think of where we would be today if Fred had just said...
"You're right Nels...I don't know why I keep obsessing about this fiberglass laminated recurve thing, it just isn't necessary. Let's just stick to our roots and avoid rocking the boat."
I hope we never lose those minds.
We're not talking about Fred Bear not doing fiberglass ...that's expanding the Box ...we're talking about fake news, misconceptions, bogus claims, Etc
You're not going to reinvent the wheel but you can improve the tire ...can anyone grasp what we're saying here????
What Rob and I are talking about is 13 years of running this site and seeing trends like we talked about earlier and the watering down of traditional bowhunting through miss information.
After 5 pages I guess our message is not going to get through so this thread has run its course let's all just go hunting shall we?