This is not an edge debate. How sharp is the "Fred Bear" edge? Is it just sharp enough to cut hair? Would it shave?
I have to ask......WHAT is the Fred Bear edge ?
That what I've heard people call it. It's just a filed edge. Making a burr and just nocking it off.
I've done it. File sharp, then hit it for a few minutes on a kitchen knife steel. It'll shave as clean as a leather stropped edge, but you can feel the rough edge drag on your skin. I've only killed one deer with trad gear, but it performed very well on that one.
If that's what it is, then done correctly it will shave hair.
QuoteOriginally posted by Shadowhnter:
If that's what it is, then done correctly it will shave hair.
Yes it will. And slice fingers. ;)
I use a Fred bear edge if you wanna call it that. I get the burr done than just touch it with either leather or a steel. I shot through a 300# pig with a 450 grain arrow using them like that and a few whitetails. It's a rough edge not like a muzzy. But it works for me.
And yes it will shave hair right off my arm with ease.
I like razor sharp. I gave razor sharp broad heads a real chance a few seasons back. After reading Ashbys work, he suggests that BH should be sharp enough to shave your beard with ease. My experience concurs with him. Two critters I took really changed my mind. A sow and a buck that both went less than 45 yrds. Bloodtrails were to say the least no issue.
I hunted for many years with file sharp, but I am now firmly in the razor sharp camp. If a hunter does not wish to take the time to obtain needed equipment and skill to learn sharpening to a razor level, I really think they would be well served to just buy razor sharp cut on contact BH. It would be money well spent in recovery of game.
Research Article Part 8
http://tuffhead.com/education/ashby.html
I've never been able to shave with that method, it takes a little longer with a razoredge clamp but when done they will pop hairs off just sliding the blade over your arm. I'm a firm believer in RAZOR sharp heads.
One observation that I would like to bring into the conversation is that Fred shot a 65# bow. There is considerable more energy available with that heavy of a draw weight than say a 45# bow. I shoot a 50# @ 28 and I try to get my heads as sharp as I can. I believe that I have less margin of error than a heavy bow guy would. While all bows require a sharp edge to get penetration, it is imperative for those of us shooting lighter equipment. I have three step process that I use. First, I use a flat file to widen the edge as Fred did, then I use a 3R hollow ground jig that I run my Zwickey's through to get the hollow ground profile, and them some time on a ceramic rod to get the razor edge.
I personally like it best. Simple, and works every time! I heard someone say one time a surgeon uses the edge he does to minimize bleeding, and heal quickly, I want neither of those things! Im not in any way trying to start a debate, i just have had great results with "Fred Bear sharp."
"fred bear edge". never heard that one and i thought i'd heard it all. live and learn, eh?
this is simple stuff, no need for over thinking.
all that matters is if you did the sharpening job right, and the broad will shave hair off yer arm. that's it.
now you'll prolly ask, how do i sharpen a 2, 3, or 4 blade broadhead? go check out the 'how to - resources' board, just a few clicks away.
Either a razor edge or a "Fred Bear" edge will shave hair or kill a game animal just fine. If you don't believe it, just read some of the threads similar to this all over the place. You will get convincing stories that "prove" each edge is better than the other. But, if it will shave hair, it will do the trick as long as the shot placement is good.
Well said Rob! :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
.....all that matters is if you did the sharpening job right, and the broad will shave hair off yer arm.
really, i don't understand the logic behind threads like this. what is there NOT to understand about broadhead lethality? make it sharp like a razor. so sharp that yer scared to touch it. protect that edge, too - don't wanna dull it needlessly cause you want it to do its job well (IF you do yer job well with arrow placement).
again, if yer not sure how to get most any blade razor sharp, seek out out our resources board. if that don't help, then make a thread and ask how.
I Agree Rob, maybe another forum section for beginners to ask these questions is needed along with. Which arrow is the best,do i need a 200 grain broadhead, how fast can i make my arrow, is 25% FOC too much on and on an on...i been on trad gang since the early 2000's and left for a while due to home circumstances along with the same old boring questions being asked every week.. There's a wealth of knowledge for any answer if people use the search features that are on here. I see it everyday young people love to make things complicated...Bowhunting with the trad bow an life is better if things are simple. Also seems people now days want to be shooters instead of hunters.
QuoteOriginally posted by huskyarcher:
I heard someone say one time a surgeon uses the edge he does to minimize bleeding,
I hate to admit this but, last year I was shooting a razor sharp Bear razorhead into a foam target. The BH was stuck in the target. In stead of turning the target upside down and putting my foot on the target, Was wearing shorts. I just put my knee on it, pulled and that razor sharp head went across my calf right below the knee. I dropped the arrow and looked down. Already had blood in my shoe.Went to my work bench, grabbed a roll of paper towels to hold against it and hobbeled to the steps to go upstairs. Four inch cut plus hit a vein. Left a blood trail across the basement a blind man could follow. Never believe a razor sharp edge reduces the bleeding.
You are correct sir it does not reduce bleeding ....it actually encourages bleeding because a super smooth cut will not coagulate as quick as a jagged one...
there's not as same amount of trauma sent to the area plus the surgeon uses such a scalpel also to reduce scarring.
The cleaner the cut the easier it is for the surgeon to work on you and the tissues he's fixing.
This however does not mean that a File Edge will not work and kill game make no mistake about it.A file edge will serve its purpose and more so if done correctly.
I'm going to continue to call this a file edge because I've been around for a while and I've never heard it called a Fred Bear Edge... maybe that's a new term made up by someone.
I have never heard of Fred Bear sharp either. I was impressed with the razor sharp. I hunted with a file sharpened, pop hair BH for many years and took game.
Filed, honed, and stropped to razor edge Woodsman Elite...exit. Keep em sharp.
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n559/jeffbschulz/Mobile%20Uploads/20141109_094441_zps524522f4.jpg) (http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/jeffbschulz/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141109_094441_zps524522f4.jpg.html)
There was a film many years ago with Bear sharpening a head. What the poster may be referring to was the final strokes Bear used which more or less using the file like a steel to correct or remove the burr. I think what one needs to watch out for with softer metal heads like the old Bears is a smooth bur, it may cut the hair on your arm, but that bur edge may not hold up going cross ways through an animals hair and hide or rib bones. Stropping the head with something like a jewel stick or a belt or even the file will reveal what edge would be left when that bur comes off. A bur and microscopic cutting teeth are not the same thing, even a razor blade has those cutting teeth. Like my son demonstrated one time when showing somehow how he sharpened his Grizzlies, turning the head in the sun light to show the bur, he said see that, it is almost a magnetic thing. Then he took a hardware magnet that farmers use for cows, ran it lightly across the head, and held up the magnet, "There's your bur."
QuoteOriginally posted by Mr.Vic:
There's a wealth of knowledge for any answer if people use the search features that are on here. I see it everyday young people love to make things complicated...Bowhunting with the trad bow an life is better if things are simple. Also seems people now days want to be shooters instead of hunters.
I don't think anyone's trying to make it complicated, I think folks just like to talk about archery and since most of us don't get to spend half as much time in the woods as we'd like all that's left is chit chat. That, and there aren't too many old timers left for us younger guys to ask locally. Everyone around here has only ever hunted with compounds and modern heads.
Or not, I don't know.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mr.Vic:
I Agree Rob, maybe another forum section for beginners to ask these questions is needed along with. Which arrow is the best,do i need a 200 grain broadhead, how fast can i make my arrow, is 25% FOC too much on and on an on...i been on trad gang since the early 2000's and left for a while due to home circumstances along with the same old boring questions being asked every week.. There's a wealth of knowledge for any answer if people use the search features that are on here. I see it everyday young people love to make things complicated...Bowhunting with the trad bow an life is better if things are simple. Also seems people now days want to be shooters instead of hunters.
Exactly!!! :thumbsup: and there's a wealth of information hours and hours of reading if people would just use it. The how to forums are the same if people would just use it. But nope same threads week after week, I gave up years ago sending nice PM's trying to help.
As for the sharpening answer I use a file like Fred and many, many before him. I wouldn't call it Fred sharp either it was used before him and will always be used for some of us. Can I shave hair? I don't know I see no reason to try, I know sharp when I see it and feel it my blood trails with two blades you have to walk off to the sides at times unless you want blood all over your boots and pants. Most go down in sight and that's good enough for this old fart :D
Tracy
After using a file to set the edge angle of the blade, Fred Bear would write about the process of using the file to "stroke" rather than file. If you do that, lightly stroke with the file using almost no pressure, you can bring the blade to shaving sharpness in a few minutes. I can shave with the broad heads I file, but I use the file-then-stroke method.
Plenty of old guards here to ask!!!!
Much better than taking someone's wife's uncle's vets daughters teachers neighbor the zoo keepers cousin twice removed's advice!
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Plenty of old guards here to ask!!!!
Much better than taking someone's wife's uncle's vets daughters teachers neighbor the zoo keepers cousin twice removed's advice!
Agreed! Real life experience certainly trumps gossip any day.
I just meant the same threads over and over. Sometimes folks are lazy but sometimes it's just nice to interact with others, especially those who have actually "been there and done that". Even if it's just over the computer. Kind of like reading the book and then talking to the author.
QuoteOriginally posted by KeganM:
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Plenty of old guards here to ask!!!!
Much better than taking someone's wife's uncle's vets daughters teachers neighbor the zoo keepers cousin twice removed's advice!
Agreed! Real life experience certainly trumps gossip any day.
I just meant the same threads over and over. Sometimes folks are lazy but sometimes it's just nice to interact with others, especially those who have actually "been there and done that". Even if it's just over the computer. Kind of like reading the book and then talking to the author. [/b]
:clapper: You gotta like these 2 dudes!!
I file mine, but like smoking joe, end up with VERY light strokes, no added weight, just the file's own weight.
2 holes in everything, shoot clear thru most.
I guess I would be a criminal in most broad head sharpening circles. I sharpen very much like Tom Mussato showed, just with slightly different tools. When that stops working for me I will consider something different. Maybe a quarter inch round file, I have had guys that couldn't get the stroke with a file right, but they could work that round file and judging from the kills they have had, that must work pretty good as well.
No Tom Mussato does it the way that he has razor sharp serrations make no mistake Tom's file Broadhead sharpening system is the way to go if you want to do a file sharpen Broadhead.
I have adapted the Mussato method for single bevel heads. The Mussato edge cuts hair on entrance, it does not pull it. I have never seen hair wrap the broad head or leave much. if any, hair in the wound channel, like I have seen with at times mechanical head kills or arrow recoveries. I prefer a file with a safety edge, the single row of file teeth with abrupt jutting edge, I think gives a more refined serration pattern. I get very good blood trails.
Yall dont get me wrong, im not saying "razor" sharp isnt awesome, because it is no doubt. Im just saying ive had excellent results with the "fred bear" edge, and wont hesitate to use it again in the future. That being said, 99% of my hunting is with animals that it isnt going to make too much difference either way (small/medium hogs, deer, turkeys.)
I've heard Fred Bear edge before and what it refers to is a filed edge to a burr and then lightly stroking the file lengthways down the head from the back to the front until the edge smooths out. Depending on the file whether it is razor sharp or not.
I always start season with a razor sharp stropped edge on my arrows . Any arrow that is shot then gets a going over with a file. I use a fine machinist file and it will get a head razor sharp.
God bless, Steve
The Mussatto Edge (there, i coined one) is demonstrated on The Bowhunters of Tradgang.com DVD by Tom himself!
Pavan, I'm confused. What did farmers use a magnet on cows for. I grew up on a small farm, and can't remember anything like this. Of course, there's a lot of things I can't remember now. Thanks in advance.
Murray
MJ... it's the Fred Bear magnet method. Magnetize the udder to pick up nails in the feedlot. ;)
I use the Billy Bob Howdy Vern method.
This incorporates a cow, a magnet and a wet stone. And the cow must be outside the barn.
A cow, a magnet, a wet stone, and a magnus broadhead walk into a bar... :laughing:
Okay cow magnets, I got them from a farmer. They are about two inches long, round on both ends and very smooth and very strong. If a cow acts like has a hardware problem, ate a nail, or a piece of fencing wire, or any thing sharp and metallic, the magnet is stuffed down their throat and it is suppose to attract what ever was irritating the cows innards if it is metallic. Does it work? Beats me, but they are fun for kids to play with. My kid is in his 30s and he still messes with those magnets. Never get close to tapes or cds with those magnets. For those that find cow magnets more interesting than sharp broadheads,
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=d61f5405-f104-47ae-8305-f49c1923ce61&sfb=1&itemguid=5735dd93-c53d-4ffe-8cf4-97f316f0cd92&utm_content=37370&ccd=IFF003&CAWELAID=12029 5250000087462&CATARGETID=120295250000178804&cadevice=c&gclid=CMerqquijtQCFQKewAodlRQLhA (https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=d61f5405-f104-47ae-8305-f49c1923ce61&sfb=1&itemguid=5735dd93-c53d-4ffe-8cf4-97f316f0cd92&utm_content=37370&ccd=IFF003&CAWELAID=120295250000087462&CATARGETID=120295250000178804&cadevice=c&gclid=CMerqquijtQCFQKewAodlRQLhA)
I believe that the Mussato Edge is a particularly favorable edge for those that use back quivers as the cutting properties of the serrations cannot be scrubbed due to possible edge contacts inside the quiver. Wrong or right, I envision that the serrations have the ability to cut arteries better after going through hide, hair and possibly a rib. Arteries are tougher muscular tissue and they are not tied down all that tight.
Dead is dead, however your sharpen your heads. I've reused heads I killed a deer the day before, they had bone burs on them, tip was good and it spun good.
We all shoot at 15-20 good here it seems. It's all common sense on what YOU can do.