Hi guys!
Before my question, I want to give a shout out to Tuffheads and Vintage Archery. Being in Canada, we often have to deal with expensive shipping and long waits for things we order online from the US. I made a couple of orders from Vintage Archery this month, and received my orders quickly and for reasonable shipping cost. I stumbled on them as they are a sponsor here on TradGang, and I'm glad I did. Now for my question:
I am experimenting with EFOC, and I think I have found a hunting arrow recipe that works well for me, but I am concerned about arrow speed because the arrow is so heavy. I shoot a relatively light recurve (45# at my draw weight). My arrows are GT Trad 400's with 350 grains up front. This is giving me about a 670 grain arrow (15.4 GPP and 25.8% EFOC). It bareshafts great (maybe slightly weak), and hits HARD. I love it. However, there is a little voice in my head that keeps saying it's too heavy for my light draw weight, even though Dr. Ashby's studies suggest a 650 grain arrow at my draw weight. What do you guys think? I'm inclined to go with it as they are flying great, but I am interested in the opinions of hunters with more experience than me.This is with a 225 grain field point, 125 grain glue on adapter, and regular insert. Lighter combinations didn't bareshaft as well (I bought a test kit from Vintage Archery). I plan on using a 225 grain Tuffhead or 235 grain Grizzly come hunting season, but haven't tried a broadhead yet.Thoughts?
If it flies good and you are okay with the trajectory don't worry about it.
I have played around with heavy tips like that but I have noticed for hunting whitetails I seem to do just fine with arrow weights around 500-550 max for my 46# bows. I have gotten plenty of pass thrus. I don't feel confident shooting at a deer at 20 yards with an arrow flying around 145fps which is what happens to me when I shout 600+ grain arrows. So there is good and bad in my opinion. If you keep your shots under 15 yards stick with the heavier weights.
More weight is good! More FOC is good! As long as you can aim it and shoot it well, carry on.
Bisch
One of my good buddies has used a similar setup for years with good success.
What game are you planning on hunting? If it's deer, they are not thick-skinned, heavy boned game. I'd much rather have a straight-shooting, well flying arrow/head that is tuned right (for all momentum going straight and not fishtailing and wobbling in flight loosing energy) than to base it all upon arrow weight. Sure it has some concerns but deer are not thick-skinned, heavy boned critters and a good hunting weight arrow and a sharp broadhead that's tuned well and right will blow thru most American game.
It all depends on what and where you are hunting... I've been in camp many times and warn people about overly heavy arrows at this particular location... while those that heeded the warning where retrieving game....those that did not wear only retrieving arrows ... because the time their Arrow got there the animal they were shooting at had been in Oklahoma for 2 weeks.
If you are shooting deer and considering that you are using Tuffheads, that much weight may not be needed. I have no trouble getting pass through with 50 to 55 pound longbows at a 26" draw shooting arrows from 450 to 525 grains using 3 to 1 heads. I hunt on the ground so my shots range from 18 to over 30 yards. However, if you are reaching out that far and these are not loggy at the range that you will be hunting, no problem, use them.
Personally I think it's too much. I believe your accuracy will be better with a lighter set up. You're already using a great penetrating design... don't overthink it.
The last 2 years, Ive killed deer with a heavier set up then that. 2 seasons ago a nice P&Y buck, 45lb bow, 690 gr arrow perfect hit 17 yards.
Last season I took a large mature doe at 15 yards, with a 45lb bow, 825gr arrow, entered perfectly, but she turned slightly causing the arrow to come out back just a little. However, she was already on pins and needles and had made me several minutes prior to my shot. Based on past experiances even with much faster bows, her knowing I was there prior to the shot, was the real factor in her moving upon the shot. That arrow was MUCH heavier and slower then yours....
Both my boys that had never killed deer before scored this last season as well, with similar set ups. 45lb bow, 805 gr arrow, nice buck at 13 yards, and 45lb bow, 17 yards, perfect hit on very large mature doe, 670 gr arrow.....
I think you are plenty safe.
I agree, 450- 550 gr. arrows are plenty for most game
An area belligerent know it all, said to my wife while she was coming to get me with her bloody arrow in hand, "I shoot an x bow with x00s weight arrows with an x long draw and I don't get pass throughs and you don't either." He was no help that day, a compound hunter field dressed her deer, went back to my van got the cart and hauled her deer out. Sometime later I saw the super dude shoot his heavy recurve, he was totally over bowed, his log heavy arrows flew like logs and he could not hit the broad side of anything. There is a case for heavy bows and heavy arrows, but it needs to be a package deal that works for the shooter. I have shot lots of deer with wood arrows, a couple with loaded fiberglass arrows that were real heavy out of heavy longbows, but I must say a whitetail does not require that. Getting an arrow to fly nice and straight behind the broadhead is important for both penetration and accuracy. With Tuffheads I would consider finding which cedar arrow spine would work with those heads, before going way heavy with an extra front loaded carbon arrow. And yes, I got even with the compounder as well. He is no longer a compounder.
I remember the story told by Ron LaClair about someone that killed an American Bison with a 400 grain Arrow out of the 50s pound bow with a 4 blade Broadhead.
If you can't kill a whitetail with a 50 pound bow and a 500 grain Arrow you've got way more problems than arrow weight.
OK, can't hold back anymore.
The Ashby report is a great study in arrow dynamics and performance! And definitely has it's place, BUT...
BUT!! I believe that many take it too far and end up with results that don't necessarily make much sense. Typical "Western" thinking, "More is better." Some list point weights that are NEARLY a decent arrow's total weight.
An anvil of 200 pounds will make a GREAT UEFOC arrow point (nearly a 100% FOC) but only if shot straight down out of a 150 foot high tree stand.
I believe that most North American archers would see better results with the old 10 grains per pound (or thereabouts) arrow with about 14% FOC. PLUS they will find easier tuning, better arrow speed and excellent penetration and easier materials selection.
Over the years, ABOUT 10 grains per pound has been proven VERY effective AND a good trade off on arrow mass (penetration) AND arrow speed.
Again, Just MY opinion, but I think MOST shooters make it too hard and just based on an "understanding or miss understanding" of the Ashby report.
Arne
QuoteOriginally posted by moebow:
OK, can't hold back anymore.
The Ashby report is a great study in arrow dynamics and performance! And definitely has it's place, BUT...
BUT!! I believe that many take it too far and end up with results that don't necessarily make much sense. Typical "Western" thinking, "More is better." Some list point weights that are NEARLY a decent arrow's total weight.
^^^
This!
I also think Ashby's report/studies is valid in some settings. But we're not talking thick-skinned, heavy-boned animals in America. I think most deer hunters would be better set with a "middle of the road" arrow weight. 9-10 gpi of arrow for the poundage and most importantly, get it tuned right. A straight flying arrow will penetrate better, shoot more accurate and a mid-road weight arrow will be more forgiving of a misjudge of range. You can still get enough weight to be a valid hunting arrow without having to lob a shot like a rainbow. I am currently shooting total arrow weight of 448 grains, 9.95 grains per pound out of a 45# recurve. I get a pretty flat-shooting setup and penetration is no problem.
I make wood arrows for a number of guys, I offered aluminum but they want wood, When i am shooting for 125 to 145 grain head weights, as long as know the bow and see them shoot I hit it right the first time, with the help of a few test shots. I have a bunch of 190 ribtecs, a couple really like the looks of the longer bigger head, but it is a curve ball. The shooting form requires more consistency to make certain that I get just right spine, the results with a harder than average release that the arrow will act softer than the same with a 145 grain head on its appropriate shaft. As in many cases folks lose a little draw when shooting at game or from tree stands, the extra heavy head that is set up for a longer draw, seems to act stiffer with the softer shot than one with a lighter head. I have some weight forward carbons the tapered kind. They shoot out of only one of my bows, I drop to a slightly lower weight bow they act way too stiff, then out of a slightly heavier bow they act way to soft. I have wood arrows that fly online with all of those same bows. I am not a carbon arrow expert by any means, but they do seem to be a little more finicky for cast energy than woods. My concern for the OP is that in a real hunting situation, he may find that his arrows will act very stiff. Stuff happens when taking real hunting shots, it is good to have a little lee way.
There is a really good artice in the latest Trad. Bowhunter mag. These two guys have killed 67 elk with 450 to 500 grain arrows and 52 to 57 pound recurves and r@d longbows.They also use trocar tip replaceable blade broadheads.I remember Dale Dye telling me he used arrows around 8 grains per pound also. Bottom line is good arrow flight and a scary sharp broadhead =good penetration and dead critters regardless.
Very interesting. Thanks guys! What precipitated all this, was my arrows were over spined with 125 grain tips. The pro shop talked me into cutting them down to 31 inches when I bought them. I was reluctant, but according to the spine chart they used, at my draw weight, full length should be 340 spine. Well, the 400's were too stiff at 31 inches and 125 grain tips.
Ashby's studies intrigued me, but I told myself to stop overthinking things and just do it. However, I got tired of struggling with over spined arrows, so I decided to give it a try. In my backyard, maximum 18 or 19 yards, the heavy arrows, with 350 grains up front, work fine and fly great, right on target (maybe a little stiff if I don't get my back tension right locked out every time, like someone suggested a couple posts up). I had a test kit, so I bare shaft experimented from about 225 grains up front, but the bare shafts flew best when I got up to 350. Yes, my arrows are slower, which is some of my concern, and why I have posted this question. I went to the range last night, and up to 20 yards, my groups are pretty consistently on target and within about a 6-8 inch circle. 30 yards a little wider, but still not bad. 40 yards they were dropping a little early on me, and I really noticed the big arc in trajectory but right-lefts were still pretty good. One of the pros at the range is a real advocate of arrows hitting harder on a downward trajectory. And he liked the arrow recipe for hunting. I found I am way more consistent with the high FOC than I was with the more standard 125 grains up front (which gave me a 470 grain arrow) and 13-14% FOC. Ethically, I would never take a shot at a deer more than 20 yards away, so I think I will go with this. However, I would still like to try a 500 or 600 spine arrow with the same FOC, but lighter weight, for longer shots I might encounter at fun 3D shoots. But that will have to wait until I can afford another set of arrows.
Im really curious as to how many nay sayers on this subject, have actually tested 650-800gr arrows on live deer with a 45lb bow.....and how many are just saying "no go" without a single shred of experiance with it.
Most of the nay Sayers above did not just get into traditional archery. Of course an 800 gr. arrow is going to perform well on a white tail deer. But so will a 450 grain arrow and YES I have proof. I personally don't care what grain arrow some one shoots,but I joined this forum to occasionally give my opinion based on my experience.
Ive killed plenty of deer with a bit less then 450gr too. Dont get me wrong, im not saying those heavy weights are needed to kill deer. OP wondered if his arrows were to heavy and slow for whitetail, not if they were effective for penetration or not...im asking a legitimate question...how many have actually pushed the limits of comfort (in ones own mind), and actually accomplished using 650-800 gr arrows on live deer and scoring with a 45lb bow. We all know what a 450gr will do on a deer. Im asking how many, in first hand experiance, knows how a 650-800gr arrow does on whitetail with a 45lb bow? I dont know about anyone else, but the only way I really was going to know, was to do it.
QuoteOriginally posted by JohnV:
If it flies good and you are okay with the trajectory don't worry about it.
I shot a nice doe at about 17yds with a 45# longbow.
Had about the same setup as you...can't remember exactly the weight of the arrow.
It was a Beman 500 with the 300 grain VPA 3 blade up front.
Nice pass thru. Dead centered a rib and broke it on the way in and sliced a rib about 1/2 way thru when going out.
Personally I'm very thankful for the extra weight I was shooting.
Without it I'm not so sure the arrow would've passed thru after having to break a rib.
Get that arrow tuned good and learn the trajectory...you'll be golden.
Consider buying some different shafts. An EFOC arrow doesn't need to be an overweight arrow. If you use most of the "wood grain carbon shafts made for traditional archery" by default you will get exactly that. An overly heavy finished arrow.
Work backwards from the finished arrow weight you want and find a shaft spine/gpi that fits your needs. It takes no more effort to make a high FOC arrow than it does a standard FOC arrow. Sometimes you order some shafts that are wrong and have to set them aside. No big deal.
I like cedar arrows with 125 glue ons just fine. But realize than by optimizing carbon arrows FOC, diameter and stiffness you can use the same bow, same draw weight, same arrow weight and trajectory and get same penetration with a wider cutting head. Nothing wrong with that!
These arrows are about 10.8 gpi and weigh 648 grains shot from a 55lb Kodiak (60lb at my 30" draw).
Currently I am trying a Centaur Big Game single bevel head. Compared to the Grizzly I was using it's almost like shooting them twice! Not sure what I'll use yet. I don't kill enough deer to be a broad head penetration data collector. (http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p714/tas0323/Mobile%20Uploads/289FFEE7-514A-4E0C-A682-AA07E94157B8_zpskn1igqep.jpg)
(http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p714/tas0323/Mobile%20Uploads/976E93CF-B695-40FE-8902-AD28FAF7576E_zpsadvutzgz.jpg)
Black arrows don't look too bad if you dress them up a bit.
(http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p714/tas0323/Mobile%20Uploads/98FAD096-A965-472A-9CAC-22C3DFC351D1_zpsmgbodab7.jpg)
(http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p714/tas0323/Mobile%20Uploads/4BBAAE48-4F88-4946-BD79-938E31BFA393_zpshaxt1wfd.jpg)
Arrow testing "lab"
(http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p714/tas0323/Mobile%20Uploads/C83672A4-7CAB-4C00-9DC5-DBC6055A2667_zps56mljlkh.jpg)
175 grain VPA laying on top of a 180 Centaur with a 125 grain adapter. Black Eagle Rampage .300 shaft that weighs 8.7 GPI.
(http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p714/tas0323/Mobile%20Uploads/626702FD-44CE-43E4-97FC-3573DBB27A83_zpsgchfldla.jpg)
I shoot about 575 grains from a 45 lb bow and have good results (almost 13 gpp). It calculates to about 21% FOC, not extreme but more than most. I find it makes for a very stable/forgiving arrow in flight. This combination has given an exit hole on everything I have shot with it in since going to this weight 10 or so years ago. Not something I can say about the 60 lb recurve with 520 grain arrows I shot when I was young and strong. I am hoping to hunt elk this year and may stick with this bow/arrow combination as I am very happy with my accuracy and the penetration potential it has when using a grizzly head.
My arrows (wood) are around 620 gr. all up weight. No idea about FOC but they move faster than I can run or throw a rock and pass through 200# whitetails.
I too go with 9 or 10 gpp.
I can go a bit heavier because of the speed that I get from my particular bow.
I have subscribed to at least 400 grains of arrow weight for deer.
So far as EFOC, I stick with 125 or 150 grain heads.
QuoteOriginally posted by Tedd:
[QB] Consider buying some different shafts. An EFOC arrow doesn't need to be an overweight arrow. If you use most of the "wood grain carbon shafts made for traditional archery" by default you will get exactly that. An overly heavy finished arrow.
I've been considering that. It will give me even more FOC, by default, using the same heads, correct?
I've only been shooting a bow for 44 years.... so maybe I should keep my experiences to myself.
:campfire:
Oh it's the experience, many of you guys have, that I am hoping to tap into. Believe me, I am listening to everyone here. Please don't keep that experience to yourself!
This is why I am loving traditional bowhunting. There doesn't seem to be any baseline/benchmark. I'm just getting into this (even though I'm 45) and plan to hunt for many years. I'm looking at it as many years to try many different things!
I prefer the Tradgang studies.
I can't speak to the penetration factor. I'm a rookie in that department & don't mind admitting it. But I shoot 630 grains out of a 50# bow (not much more than 45# at my draw) and know my trajectory well enough to have fun. I like to gap shoot -- especially past 20 yards but sometimes even at closer ranges. Slow arrows make for smaller gaps. Small gaps are less prone to errors in range estimation (until you're past the point-on range), at least for me. From 0-20, I can put the tip of the arrow on the belly of a deer target & land somewhere in the vitals. Sitting down on the ground with my bow held at about 30-degrees off horizontal, it's a little more compact and about 9-10" off to the left. I like that kind of simplicity. If I were to try to stretch my yardage out to 30 or 40 yards, I'd opt for a faster arrow. But the 0-20 game is easier for me with the heavy setup. And I figure if I can put it in the right spot, then the penetration will take care of itself.
A consideration: The woodland and midwestern Native people's seem to have preferred heavier woods making their arrows easily over 600 grains. Often hickory, ironwood, or serviceberry were selected. I don't think they shot very fast bows but must have liked the advantage of weight or toughness. I've killed deer with hardwoods and they seemed to make up for loss of speed with these other qualities
Dan
I know a guy who shoots a low 40's pound bow with around a 375 grain arrow and killed several different animals this year.
I also know a guy who killed a mule deer around 40 yards with a 471 grain arrow. He was shooting around #54 at 29".
I also know a guy who killed an elk with a 450 grain arrow.
I also recall listening to a podcast not too long ago from a guy who has killed ALMOST everything under the sun with around a 525 grain arrow.
Shoot whatever makes you happy, as long as it's ethical and abides by the laws of your state.
I have an annoyingly long point on, just think of what an advantage it would be if I just hunted with solid fiberglass carp shafts. Since I have an under 27" draw with Hill style longbows, if I made a shot and could see that it was off, I could just knock it down and try again. I read somewhere that certain arrows with certain mechanical heads can have an upper stable speed limit, where flight becomes unstable. I wonder if an arrow can have a lower stable speed limit. A pilot friend of mine that likes really old and slow planes told me once that with some faster sleek planes flying with a strong tail wind that people can get in trouble when turning with the wind when flying slow and low, the ground is still going by at the same speed, but the plane may be near stalling air speed. If a heavy slow arrow is only going 70mph and is shot with a strong tail wind, wind in an eddy current can even be faster than the flat wind speed, which could mean that arrow would only have about 30 mph of variable air speed.
The other day at my friends farm a large whirl wind came through. We shot through it, wow, those arrows were on a heck of a carnival ride. We get them every spring before the crops come up. This one had lofted corn leafs up hundreds of feet in the air.
I agree that heavy is good but only up to a point. A good combination of weight and speed is far more important than seeing how much stuff can be attached to the front end of a shaft. I have found that almost all of my arrows (woodies)do well with 125 or 145 grain points and no additional front end weight. Granted, our deer in Georgia are not nearly as big and dense as some of the animals a lot of guys pursue, so I don't need an overly aggressive arrow design. Most of mine weigh a tad over 500 grains, fly well, and are both easy to make and tune.
The 650 grain threshold that Ashby talks about is for large, thick skinned game like the water buffalo he did his research on. You don't need that much for deer.
If you want to shoot the 225 grain Tuffhead, could still drop about 100 grains of arrow weight by going to an aluminum adaptor rather than the 125 grain steel adaptor. Would likely also have to drop to a 500 spine shaft, which would reduce arrow weight by another 15-20 grains. Would still give you a plenty heavy arrow with a lot of FOC.
Years back a farmer that had a few buffalo sold them cheap to just get rid of them. A couple of deer hunters figured the best way to do it was to treat them like game. They used their 50 pound recurves. One with wood arrows and the other with aluminum. Of couse, these were domestic, but they had no problems with getting the arrow through them. I was asked to shoot them with one of my heavy bows, but I wanted no part of it.
You can't kill what you can't hit. I gotta agree with Terry on that. I've tried everything from 400 to 700 gns. 700 lasted about 1 hunt after it lumbered along and barely stuck out the far side of an elk. I shoot aluminum with 160 Ace heads for 630gns out of recurves and 620 gn wood with the same heads out of longbows. I use those because I shoot around 60lbs and the 2219's are durable as are the heavier woods. Sometimes I consider those a bit too heavy even for 60lbs. If I shot 45lbs I wouldn't go over 450gns. Efoc is something I would jump on if I ever went cape buff hunting. But I've passed thru everything from mature bucks to moose over the last 52 years of hunting with stickbows without efoc or super heavy arrows. My heavy limits 10.5gpp, my low limits anything that won't break the bow and shoots well. Deer ribs are soft so that's not even a factor for me.JMHO....P.S. To answer your question, yes it'll work but wouldn't be my choice.
I'm new to this, so I don't have any answers, only questions. What in your opinion is the point of diminishing returns for arrow weight? Is it a certain grain per pound threshold or is there an arrow weight threshold regardless of draw weight? What's the reason behind your threshold?
There is a reason the 125 grain head was the standard for so many, many years.
The heavy FOC came about with carbons.
In order to get a heavier arrow shaft, a heavier spine arrow was needed. Then the tip had to be even heavier in order to get the over spined, but now heavier shaft, to fly well.
For me, I can run a 445 grain Easton Aftermath (.400 w/125 tip) or the tried and true XX75 2117 at 530 grains with the same 125 tip.
To get a carbon to come in at weights of the aluminum I need to run a .340 and a big tip
Not worth it to me.
In my mind, we are playing several games here -Zor. A heavy arrow generally takes more of the energy a bow has to offer. This generally makes for a quieter bow at the shot. Not all bows are the same, however, some are more efficient with lighter or heavier arrows so the above is a generality that I think is correct most times.
We also have to aim the arrow and get it to the game before they need to take a drink over the hill. Heavier arrows mean slower arrow speed. A faster arrow tends to have less apparent drop than a slow arrow. This usually makes adjustments smaller for various yardages, and since many of us here on this site are instinctive shooters, smaller adjustments generally mean a bit better consistency in hitting.
A threshhold, as you asked about, is pretty much subjective, based upon experience, equipment and what an individual expects, and again, not all bows are alike in terms of ability.
Making decisions like that makes my head hurt so I tend to try to get ~10ggp of bow. That number has been bandied around for many years as a good guideline and I find very little fault in it, save Maybe for very light bows, and I am not in favor of very light bows for hunting.
Pulling numbers out of the air, I am gonna say you should try not to go below 145 FPS of arrow speed, for those reasons posted above, and 20-40fps greater than that is much better, again, for all those reasons above.
So many things affect penetration. Speed and arrow weight are just a couple of them, and in my mind, not the most important of the group.
Will it work? Oh yea. But if you come to Ashe Co, NC to hunt hold at least 6in under the does chest.
I agree more weight up front is generally a good thing-but like anything there is a point of diminishing returns. With that setup you are at almost 15 grains per pound. Being a guy that shoots low 40s, i can promise you youre going to have to get used to holding way, way low.
That being said just have fun with it, the experimenting is half the fun!!
Thanks Chuck. I have a new-to-me Holm Osprey on it's way and I'm trying to decide on an arrow recipe. I guess I could chrono it with some different arrow weights to help decide a final weight and build backwards from there.
My experience indicates that bows have a preference on arrow weight ranges.
I have chronographed several and find there is a point where the loss or gain in speed is
not on par with the change in arrow weight.
I have just cooked up a hunting arrow that is 10.1 grains per pound and 22% FOC. I used Gold Tip Velocity shafts -- the GT Velocity shafts make it easy to get reasonable weight and good FOC at the same time.
I use the same shafts, an inch longer, with lighter inserts to make a 9 GPP arrow for 3-D shooting.
-Zor.... I'm gonna be sacrilegious and say, don't make it too deep and difficult on yourself. Put together an arrow that final weighs in the 9-11 gpp and it should work fine for everything. For 3D 9 might shine, for hunting large game 10-11 might be a tad better.
More important even than weight is to take the time to tune them to the system ( you / bow) so that they shoot well.
Done.
go shoot some arrows.
QuoteOriginally posted by swamp donkey:
You can't kill what you can't hit. I gotta agree with Terry on that. I've tried everything from 400 to 700 gns. 700 lasted about 1 hunt after it lumbered along and barely stuck out the far side of an elk. I shoot aluminum with 160 Ace heads for 630gns out of recurves and 620 gn wood with the same heads out of longbows. I use those because I shoot around 60lbs and the 2219's are durable as are the heavier woods. Sometimes I consider those a bit too heavy even for 60lbs. If I shot 45lbs I wouldn't go over 450gns. Efoc is something I would jump on if I ever went cape buff hunting. But I've passed thru everything from mature bucks to moose over the last 52 years of hunting with stickbows without efoc or super heavy arrows. My heavy limits 10.5gpp, my low limits anything that won't break the bow and shoots well. Deer ribs are soft so that's not even a factor for me.JMHO....P.S. To answer your question, yes it'll work but wouldn't be my choice.
The best I can concur with! No actual hunting on live animals but I have been running 4 arrow spines and several tip weights. My heaviest arrows are arrow dynamic heavy hunters and the lightest are beman ics. Tips range from 100 gr stingers to 145 gr tigersharks and my home brew hill style heads at 245 grs. The following are the chrony numbers I got - 190 fps - 200 fps with arrows around 578-614 grain out of a 60 lb ilf setup.
My other bow is a trinity longbow and I absolutely love the accuracy with 300 spine Axis full length arrows (footed with Al) standard insert and woodsman heads. I will not buy the heavy hunters again because of the drop but will stick with the Axis and Beman.
The Axis with eskilite heads is often the deepest penetrator (in foam target).
The bow is quite with the heavy arrows.
Consider your own draw length When referring to "grains per pound" and what a good weight/speed combination is for you. The old standard of "10 grains per pound". It's mostly likely a standard derived from a 28" draw. You might go to 9 GPP if you have a 27" draw.
10 GPP is too light for any bow that I have ever used. But I'm drawing 30". I use about 11GPP. Seems to be the best for speed and quiet. Whenever I try to drop down to 10 GPP you can tell it's being a little hard on the equipment.
Maybe the 125 grain heads on cedar might have become a standard because higher spine shafts were not as common as lesser spine. Not because the 125 made the ultimate weight shaft?
In the 50s and 60s heavy spine cedars were much easier to get than now. There was a common thought that excessive head weight was a negative. Lots of big name archers preferred lighter head weights. The light broadhead heavy arrow syndrome.
Of course, by heavy arrow they meant a cedar 11/32". The Zwickey Eskimo on a 11/32 cedar shaft was good enough to kill a lot of game for many years. For large wild hogs, which we have none around here, may need something stouter, but I was given some this year that was shot with an arrow that I made, a 480 grain tapered cedar tipped with the lowly Zwickey Eskimo.
I've told the story many times. My best friend's daughter has killed several mature deer with arrows that weigh 400 or so grains shot from a recurve she's pulling around 25@25 on (25# at 25"). She doesn't normally get pass through shots, but she gets both lungs and dead deer. Longest shot was approximately 26 yards. The poundage is legal here in MS.
Thank you so much for all of your advice guys! I love the access to such wisdom that this forum provides. I have taken all of your wisdom to heart.
After some consideration, I have dropped my arrow weight down a bit. I was concerned about arrow speed and a 675 grain arrow being way too slow. Terry Green mentioned the possibility of deer jumping the string and being gone by the time the arrow reaches its mark. This was my main concern, and why I started this thread. I am still intrigued by EFOC and heavier arrows, but I came to the conclusion that my set up was too heavy for two reasons. 1. Too slow for hunting jumpy deer, and 2. Tuning.
Regarding tuning, I made an interesting discovery. Having 350 grains up front, I assumed the arrow would naturally be weak. However, the more I shot, the more I was hitting left. I thought it was a form issue, and blamed that, initially. However, over time, I discovered it was pretty consistent (as is my form). After listening to Jimmy Blackmon on The Push Podcast, he mentioned that too much weight up front can cause a false stiff reading for some people. So I experimented and dropped my point weight by 50 grains... BINGO!
Now I'm still shooting a 225 grain glue on, but with a 75 grain adapter instead of a 125 grain before (300 grain total). This brought my shots back over from left much more consistently, maybe even a little weak (which is logical), but that's okay IMO. Arrow weight is now around 630 grains, and the arrow is noticeably faster. The chronometer at my club is reading arrow speeds around 165-170 fps. I never chrono'd the 675 grain arrows, but they are noticeably faster in my opinion. The trajectory is a little flatter, but not totally flat. I do enjoy an arc to my arrow flight.
I consider myself an instinctive shooter, as I focus on my target, as that is mostly natural for me. I played Lacrosse and Hockey all my life, and looking at my target and following through on my shot comes naturally. However, I am aware of my arrow tip, but I don't "aim" like a gap shooter. I'm aware of gap at different distances, but an arced arrow trajectory (and larger gaps) isn't an issue for me.
Point is, I think I've found my current sweet spot in arrow tuning. Key word is current, though haha! I'm sure I will play around again in the future. Thanks so much guys. Your wisdom helped get me there!
You're getting 165fps w/ a 630gr arrow out of a 45# bow? I'd check that chronograph......
I typically go for a 620-640gr arrow total weight....I think with your inserts and the heads you are talking about it is too much honestly...for a 45# bow. Now if you keep your shots to 15 yds +/- will be fine but I think you are going to be way up there in the 12-13gpp on your setup.
For a 45# bow I would go with a 160gr head at the most to be honest...on your shaft of preference with your fletching of preference and dont worry about it.
I typically go 11gpp out of 53-60# bows at my draw lengths for longbows, recurves, selfbows, rawhide backed bows.....
I think there can be TOO MUCH FOC and WEIGHT in the arrow....
I think you would be better served by an arrow in the 9-10gpp range based on your bow weight at your draw...and for shooting thin skinned animals at closer ranges of 20 yds or less.
Good luck.
Agree with everyone else. I use 475-500 gr out of a 45#@29" recurve and am more than happy and confident using. The Doe I shot this year was quartering away and I blew through her so fast it was sticking in the ground on opposite side.
With your 30" draw length, your arrows will be sticking in the dirt on the other side of deer even if you drop down in arrow weight.
Dr Ashby's report was based on the starting premise that we have no idea where we are going to hit the game animal. This was based on his survey of Michigan bow hunters who admitted missing completely (air ball) often. If you make a less than ideal hit, then penetration becomes critical.
Dr Ashby also noted that the most important factor in penetration was perfect arrow flight, not weight and momentum. Only after achieving perfect arrow flight did other factors start to make a difference.
Your big fat Canadian deer are not going to do a double flip and run 50 feet before the arrow gets there like Terry's Texas jitterbugs. Those southern deer are like wound springs waiting to hear a bow string.
Clean arrow flight, range where you can hit a tennis ball and you'll be posting hero pics.
Yeah Sean and it takes more energy to get through a balisticaly moving animal that it stationary one and I have killed a lot more dear than just in Texas..... not to mention passing through big shielded boars with multi blade heads which are much more formidable than any deer from Florida to Canada
Again dear are basically chumps to pass through ...if you have to use an arrow this heavy to get through a deer you have other issues with your setup or your form...... save those heavy arrows for Hogs and Elk where it's needed with lighter weight bows
Thanks again guys. I've decided I'm not going to overthink anything anymore, and look at the basics. With my current setup (630 grain arrow and 47# @30 inch recurve), I am currently keeping 6 arrows within 6 to 8 inches of my intended target (a 1 inch wide plastic milk jug cap) at 20 yards.Usually five of them are within a 5-6 inch group, I often pull my 6th shot. Arrow flight looks great. I'm feeling confident with it, so I'm going to give it a go this fall and not think about it anymore. Broadheads will be a 235 grain Grizzly Kodiak with a 75 grain brass insert/glue-in adapter. Lethal.
Thanks again! Hopefully I will have some photos to share this fall. If not, I guess that's hunting! :)
Best of luck Sir....await your stories! :campfire:
There is a bell curve for your optimum spine and there is a bell curve for your particular bow and arrow combination when it comes to speed.
For a 45# and whitetails a 450-500 grain arrow is a good combination. 10-11 gpp gives you good trajectory and good penetration.
Depending on where you hunt, I would refrain from using 2 blade broadheads without bleeders.
It is great if you killed the deer, but it stinks if you can't find it due to a lack of bloodtrail.
In thick cover, a Wensel Woodsman or a 2 blade broadhead with bleeder blades is very much recommended. This is especially true with heart shots during the fall (I had two of these with zero blood to trail due to shooting only 2 blades at this time). Never had zero blood trail with Wensels Woodsmen or with the bleeder blades.